General VOICE Meeting (Topic: Aurora Beta) From 12/15/98
12-14-98 ] [ 20:05:04 ]<Judy> VOICE welcomes Mike Persell back for a continued discussion of Aurora Beta
12-14-98 ] [ 20:06:48 ]<Judy0> persell: Thanks for the return visit. Would you like to give us any updates before the questions start flying?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:06:56 ]<efir> persell: Will IBM releaseinformations about algorithms and data structures used in JFS?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:07:17 ]<persell> efir...how much mony you got?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:07:43 ]<efir> persell: Hm, well, let's see.... about 20 DM. Enough? ;)
12-14-98 ] [ 20:08:19 ]<persell> As most of you know, the release you got was the 1st beta. We have had about 6 new builds since
12-14-98 ] [ 20:08:50 ]<Longstaff> persell....that implies you're not that far from ga
12-14-98 ] [ 20:08:57 ]<Confed2> Is there a chance we will get another chance to "PREVIEW" it?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:08:57 ]<persell> We have been watching the comments and are adjusting code like the LVM based on feedback
12-14-98 ] [ 20:09:25 ]<persell> Longstaff: GA is still slated for March or April
12-14-98 ] [ 20:09:55 ]<efir> Has IBM developed JFS theirselves or is it (somewhat) the same as HP-UX's JFS (AKA Veritas File System)?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:10:00 ]<persell> Confed2: I would like to see the updated LVM code released
12-14-98 ] [ 20:10:02 ]<Judy0> persell: do you know if any other IBM's involved with the beta are on the warp-beta mailing list?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:10:11 ]<Judy0> IBM'ers that is :)
12-14-98 ] [ 20:10:23 ]<persell> efir: JFS was a port from IBM's AIX JFS
12-14-98 ] [ 20:10:58 ]<persell> Judy: none that are there regularly...some lurkers I think
12-14-98 ] [ 20:11:04 ]<efir> persell: Yes, but is that (AIX) JFS realted to the Veritas Code?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:11:04 ]<Judy> ok
12-14-98 ] [ 20:11:05 ]<Confed2> Thanks Judy, that looked wierd :)
12-14-98 ] [ 20:11:06 ]<DaBull> persell pls clarify,... does the beta expire on the 18th or just testor support?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:11:24 ]<DaBull> tester even
12-14-98 ] [ 20:21:19 ]<Longstaff> i was going to ask before about how i'm a little puzzled about something....how does jfs compares or competes with the clustering concept
12-14-98 ] [ 20:22:32 ]<persell> Clustering is a group of servers working or waiting to back each other up...JFS is a file system that runs locally and uses a journal to record reads and writes
12-14-98 ] [ 20:23:32 ]<persell> A big concept problem we are aeeing is that some folks believe we replace HPFS386 with JFS...we don't
12-14-98 ] [ 20:23:42 ]<fire> persell: Can JFS (just hypothetically) be installed on Warp 4?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:23:44 ]<persell> aeeing=seeing
12-14-98 ] [ 20:24:12 ]<persell> fire: hypothetically yes...it will be a dog though
12-14-98 ] [ 20:24:22 ]<fire> persell: Why?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:24:28 ]<Longstaff> persell....i was under that impression myself (replacement)
12-14-98 ] [ 20:24:46 ]<persell> JFS scales under hard load...Warp 4 can't scale to more CPUs
12-14-98 ] [ 20:25:17 ]<Longstaff> what triggers the distribution?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:25:54 ]<persell> Longstaff: There is a monitor that watches differences in reads and writes
12-14-98 ] [ 20:26:15 ]<Longstaff> so it's transparent?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:26:26 ]<persell> When the times exceed a threshold it grabs more CPU if available
12-14-98 ] [ 20:26:28 ]<fire> persell: I consider converting my development machine's file systems to FJS. BTW: Will there be a HPFS to JFS converter available someday?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:26:41 ]<lmadode> persell: is this like mainframe journalling? Do journal files have to be switched at a certain point? Or does JFS only journal a brief period of transactions and then cycle?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:27:17 ]<persell> fire: They are completely different contructions. The committmemnt to one or the other is fixed
12-14-98 ] [ 20:27:48 ]<persell> lmadode: A very condensed version...we don't scale that much!
12-14-98 ] [ 20:28:20 ]<fire> persell: FAT and HPFS are that, too. Nonetheless PowerQuest developed a converter.
12-14-98 ] [ 20:28:34 ]<persell> For NetBIOS work HPFS386 is still king. JFS runs in ring 3
12-14-98 ] [ 20:28:55 ]<lmadode> I wouldn't count on PQ for much new OS/2 related development.
12-14-98 ] [ 20:29:10 ]<persell> fire: the conversion in experiments has only been one way
12-14-98 ] [ 20:29:15 ]* Orion451 has set away! (auto away after idling [15 min]) [Log:ON] .gz.
12-14-98 ] [ 20:29:20 ]<fire> persell: As far as I could see, Aurora's JFS does not provide (symbolic/hard) links like UN*X file systems do. Why?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:29:41 ]<persell> OS/2 kernel won't support it
12-14-98 ] [ 20:29:56 ]<Joc_> how much overhead JFS add to writing a file (CPU and Hard Disk)
12-14-98 ] [ 20:30:11 ]<Klaus> persell: so why don't rewrite the os2kernl ?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:30:25 ]<persell> Joc: being its ring 3 there is more overhead
12-14-98 ] [ 20:30:50 ]<persell> Klaus: Time and money right now...Y2K is eating up resource like crazy
12-14-98 ] [ 20:31:18 ]<Klaus> persell: is this the reason why jfs is not implemented in ring0 ?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:32:01 ]<lmadode> I thought Warp was already Y2K certified?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:32:09 ]<persell> There are several key features that got to be too expensive initially. Bootable JFS, User disk limits, bootable CDs, Ring 0...
12-14-98 ] [ 20:32:42 ]<persell> lmadode: Warp is...we are losing lots of key people to large Y2K projects on all platforms
12-14-98 ] [ 20:33:12 ]<lmadode> persell: thanks for the clarification
12-14-98 ] [ 20:33:20 ]<fire> persell: AFAIK bootable CDs can be built by a user (at least there's an archive named cdboot.zip). Why can't IBM?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:34:37 ]<Agios> In a nutshell, what are the key benefits of Aurora?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:34:55 ]<persell> Its not a matter of can't...when is the issue. When a company like IBM writes it...it has to work on every conceivable combination of controllers and SCSI or IDE drives out there. We have 1200 combinations in our test lab and that is still not enough
12-14-98 ] [ 20:35:52 ]<Joc_> Of all the things that you would like to be in JFS, what percentage is in it now?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:35:55 ]<fire> persell: Ok. Will (or at least *may*) any of these enhancements be available via Software Choice in the foreseeable future?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:36:15 ]<persell> The key benefits are the hidden ones...1) API now supports 4gb RAM, 3gb per process...2) File sizes have increased...3) JFS and CHKDSK are very fast
12-14-98 ] [ 20:36:44 ]<persell> I can't guess now fire...its still 4 months to GA
12-14-98 ] [ 20:37:02 ]<Klaus> persell: is there any way to push IBM to release an Warp 5 client ? (Aurora without the server stuff) ?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:37:02 ]<TheSeer> will jfs be bootable in GA ?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:37:03 ]<persell> Joc: 7 out of 10
12-14-98 ] [ 20:37:34 ]<Longstaff> we're all hoping bigtime for a warp 5 clinet
12-14-98 ] [ 20:37:37 ]<persell> TheSeer: We are trying...what would you be willing to drop to have it?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:38:14 ]<TheSeer> persell: NT-Support ? *eg*
12-14-98 ] [ 20:38:35 ]<lmadode> Any idea how many folks are currently working on the Aurora project?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:38:37 ]<persell> Logstaff: So am I and several others...its a matter of the Y2K deadline...potential sales..politics
12-14-98 ] [ 20:38:58 ]* Longstaff has y2k hassles of his own :)
12-14-98 ] [ 20:38:59 ]<persell> Easily a 100
12-14-98 ] [ 20:39:58 ]<Mossy> persell: can anyone get a copy of the Aurora beta?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:40:05 ]<_charly> I would like complete multimedia support for DVD... what happened in the poll??? can we know about it?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:40:30 ]<persell> Mossy: I think they're all gone
12-14-98 ] [ 20:41:06 ]<persell> charly: The organization that developed the DVD standard wants half a million for the specs
12-14-98 ] [ 20:41:20 ]<TheSeer> persell: will there be a second beta for everybody having the actual beta ?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:41:25 ]<Longstaff> good point _charly - multimedia teleconferencing is gonna become a killer app in a short while i think
12-14-98 ] [ 20:41:31 ]<lmadode> Some atandard if the the specs aren't public
12-14-98 ] [ 20:41:36 ]<_charly> persell: i did received one, with dupplicated CDs.. i was umnable to install it...
12-14-98 ] [ 20:41:41 ]<persell> Agreed Mark
12-14-98 ] [ 20:42:28 ]<persell> charly: send a note to the address in the package with subject line addressing the bad package
12-14-98 ] [ 20:42:53 ]<Confed2> Is it done now?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:43:00 ]<_charly> Thanx persell
12-14-98 ] [ 20:43:04 ]<TheSeer> persell: question to the tcp/ip stack. is there a way to have ip-masqurading for a device like lan0 or ppp0 ?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:43:23 ]<_charly> (charly has one dollar for the DVD support...:)...),
12-14-98 ] [ 20:43:48 ]<Joc_> There was a message about some cooperation with Stardock for a Warp 5, using a scale down Aurora, anything happening there?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:43:54 ]<persell> There is a way...its been done via Igate and some dialers.
12-14-98 ] [ 20:44:07 ]<TheSeer> persell: that's ugly ;)
12-14-98 ] [ 20:44:08 ]<persell> Joc: None that I'm aware of
12-14-98 ] [ 20:44:31 ]<Joc_> Persell, could have been nice to see
12-14-98 ] [ 20:44:41 ]<Confed2> If SunnyBear would run this under AURORA, we wouldn't have these problems :)
12-14-98 ] [ 20:44:48 ]<persell> What needs to be in the FAQs ( I helped write some)
12-14-98 ] [ 20:44:52 ]<_charly> i know i am going into politics, but half a million dollars is not enough to consider SOHO market as an alternative way to get founds????
12-14-98 ] [ 20:45:27 ]<SunnyBear> Confed2: run what under Aurora?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:45:28 ]<ptackbar> _charly: It's not in IBM's interest to try and steal away Microsoft's stronghold on the home market when they can just sell IBm products that run on Windows and make more money.
12-14-98 ] [ 20:46:00 ]<fire> persell: I had a very special problem with LVM and 2 primary partitions (both Drive C:) - I wasn't able to create that configuration with LVM, but with fdisk
12-14-98 ] [ 20:46:04 ]<persell> charly: Thats just for the specs...that doesn't include code. There has been a proposal and we do support the disk standard
12-14-98 ] [ 20:46:06 ]<TheSeer> persell: why does IBM claim the tcp/ip-stack is *full bsd 4.4-compilant* if it's missing features like ip-masqurading ?!
12-14-98 ] [ 20:46:18 ]<lmadode> ptackbar: until M$ takes over the market and puts IBM out of that line of work.
12-14-98 ] [ 20:46:26 ]<_charly> _ptackbar... does we run windows apps???? can you run Win 32 apps???
12-14-98 ] [ 20:47:13 ]<ptackbar> Hey, I'm not condoning it :) I'm just saying they are doing what makes them the most money :)
12-14-98 ] [ 20:47:15 ]<lmadode> persell: didn't IBM write DVD drivers for NT for the TP770? I saw a boast about it on IBM's TP site.
12-14-98 ] [ 20:47:16 ]* Longstaff would rather run apps that work relaibly
12-14-98 ] [ 20:47:39 ]<persell> fire: This is a server meant for high uptime and availability. Multiple partitions are not its forte
12-14-98 ] [ 20:47:40 ]<Judy> getting back on the topic of Warp beta :)
12-14-98 ] [ 20:48:00 ]<Judy> err..Aurora :)
12-14-98 ] [ 20:48:06 ]<persell> lmadode: Probably was bought with the hardware
12-14-98 ] [ 20:48:09 ]<Confed2> LongStaff, I myself would like to run SOFTWARE..........I'm getting to the point that I would take the unstability!
12-14-98 ] [ 20:48:13 ]<lmadode> Judy: this is related. DVD is needed in Warp 5
12-14-98 ] [ 20:48:35 ]<Judy> mad: ok :)
12-14-98 ] [ 20:48:36 ]<Confed2> DVD is needed even in Aurora!
12-14-98 ] [ 20:48:57 ]<Joc_> Did IBM have any contribution to the DVD standard?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:49:08 ]<fire> persell: What I wanted to say: LVM can handle it, but not create it.
12-14-98 ] [ 20:49:10 ]<persell> TheSeer: We write to the RFC's
12-14-98 ] [ 20:50:10 ]<_charly> ok... we are entering in the old vicious circle... programs vs. market... i insist... if SOHO market is attacked Warp could have more apps and Warp developers could have more money to do DVD drives... (full powered)
12-14-98 ] [ 20:50:43 ]<persell> I will just sit and listen
12-14-98 ] [ 20:51:01 ]<ptackbar> _charly: but you're missing the point...there's no benefit in it for IBM if they can just write software for Windows :)
12-14-98 ] [ 20:51:05 ]<persell> DVD is not out of the picture...
12-14-98 ] [ 20:51:19 ]<persell> WRONG!!!!!!
12-14-98 ] [ 20:51:47 ]<Confed2> I know it would help my OS/2 sales to have more apps available, and with DVD catching on like crazy, OS/2 could be up front or WAY out in left field
12-14-98 ] [ 20:51:48 ]<Joc_> persell, How important Aurora is for IBM? Your division?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:52:33 ]<fire> persell: I tried to put my SWAPPER.DAT on JFS - this didn't work either. Will this be able in the GA?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:52:53 ]* lmadode is quite pleased to see the aurora web site with poll questions related to the SO/HO user. Any idea who directs the choice of questions there?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:53:07 ]<ptackbar> why would a server need DVD?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:53:11 ]<persell> ptackbar: my customers, the accounts I support, average 5000 OS/2 seats each...they don't need DVD according to their Managers
12-14-98 ] [ 20:53:23 ]<TheSeer> persell: what does IBM see the big deal in doing Warp-SERVER but kill off the client ? If there is *everything* running on Windoze, why should someone use Warp as a Server ?? ( When even some addons for Lotus Notes don't run on OS/2 )
12-14-98 ] [ 20:53:24 ]<ptackbar> persell: exactly
12-14-98 ] [ 20:53:26 ]<persell> fire: Swapper will always fail in JFS
12-14-98 ] [ 20:53:27 ]<_charly> but is SOHO out of the picture???? why??? i just need one good reason to understand why 10 million copies can be better than 10,000
12-14-98 ] [ 20:54:11 ]<_charly> sorry 10,000 can be better than 10 million...:)
12-14-98 ] [ 20:54:24 ]<ptackbar> _charly: MS has a stronghold on the soho market...selling OS/2 to that market would require a major ad campaign which is obviously not going to happen...so they wouldn't make money off it
12-14-98 ] [ 20:54:32 ]<fire> persell: Is the SWAPPER.DAT on HPFS checked after a system crash (does it consume time and RAM)?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:54:59 ]<ptackbar> It costs more to change the mind of the average consumer than to just write for windows :)
12-14-98 ] [ 20:55:04 ]* Longstaff is thankful for ibm for the resources they are putting behind ongoing warp development
12-14-98 ] [ 20:55:07 ]<persell> fire: JFS is a ring 3 installable file system...until it boots it can't support swapper
12-14-98 ] [ 20:55:13 ]<Confed2> I must admit, it does "SEEM" to be crazy to run WarpServer as the main server, then run Windows off of it, you have to train a person to run Warp and then train others to run Wimpdoze
12-14-98 ] [ 20:55:41 ]<Agios> _charly, IBM announced 18 months ago, or longer, that they are out of the SOHO business regarding OS/2.
12-14-98 ] [ 20:55:51 ]<Agios> and that's that
12-14-98 ] [ 20:55:56 ]<persell> Thom...the cost of an NT server over a year is 6 times that of a Warp Server
12-14-98 ] [ 20:56:07 ]<Confed2> But then again, you need your server to be reliable..............a CLASSIC CATCH 22
12-14-98 ] [ 20:56:32 ]<Confed2> I know, I'm looking at it from BOTH ends............:)
12-14-98 ] [ 20:56:32 ]<ptackbar> CLASSIC
12-14-98 ] [ 20:56:53 ]<Confed2> As classic as it can be in the age of computers :)
12-14-98 ] [ 20:56:55 ]<TheSeer> persell: nobody i know cares about that costs. They just don't understand why they should install a Warp SERVER if they have everything else on NT..
12-14-98 ] [ 20:57:26 ]<TheSeer> ( and they have to use NT or Windoze98 for client, since they can't get an actual version of Warp for the client )
12-14-98 ] [ 20:57:38 ]<Joc_> persell, what is the main reason for that 6 times cost?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:57:54 ]<persell> I get a lot of feedback bout the the costs...especally when you have 1200 servers and 60,000 clients
12-14-98 ] [ 20:57:56 ]<Abraxas> Can we *please* try to stay on the topic of the Aurora Beta, and not digress into marketing and other OSes?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:57:59 ]<Confed2> Warp v4 works well with Aurora, so that is not a question at this point
12-14-98 ] [ 20:58:42 ]<persell> Thanks Abraxas
12-14-98 ] [ 20:58:44 ]* TheSeer shuts up
12-14-98 ] [ 20:59:03 ]<persell> I want to ask some questions
12-14-98 ] [ 20:59:11 ]<Judy> you have the floor
12-14-98 ] [ 20:59:35 ]<Confed2> We are..........What are the reasons a NT Network should switch to Aurora? Costs are at issue with MAJOR $$$ business's, but other will opt for the extra costs if they can run all the software available
12-14-98 ] [ 20:59:35 ]<Longstaff> persell....how can we help?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:59:42 ]<Klaus> how much money is IBM willing to spend for the Aurora development compared to the money they spent on WarpServer 4 Development ?
12-14-98 ] [ 20:59:52 ]<persell> Think in terms of server and client
12-14-98 ] [ 21:00:01 ]<fire> persell: Now that JFS can't be booted from, it would be helpful to install all apps, the server, java and so on on JFS while leaving HPFS just for the base OS. On my first trials with the preview, I wasn't able to create and format a Logical Volume with JFS. Is this a known issue?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:00:28 ]* Longstaff is trying to see it in server and client terms
12-14-98 ] [ 21:01:06 ]<fire> persell: I wasn't able to do this during installation. With a running Aurora it works, of course.
12-14-98 ] [ 21:01:14 ]<persell> Is it crucial for JFS to be bootable...even though it will boot slower
12-14-98 ] [ 21:01:15 ]<Swanee> Hold up gang... Mike is asking a question now.
12-14-98 ] [ 21:01:53 ]<_charly> persell... as server i don't mind if you take longer to boot, if i will boot once a month or once a year...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:01:57 ]<Confed2> YES!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't want a file system I cannot boot to!
12-14-98 ] [ 21:02:18 ]<_charly> in terms of client i will... cause i will boot every morning...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:02:22 ]<persell> Why not Thom?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:02:40 ]<Confed2> and with the JFS being more reliable............Why not do it
12-14-98 ] [ 21:03:11 ]<TheSeer> maybe we should let Mike ask his question now ?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:03:13 ]<persell> I can only think of one valid reason....HPFS chkdsk is slooooowww
12-14-98 ] [ 21:03:22 ]<Confed2> Cause the more seperate things you have, the more things screw up and are harder to track down
12-14-98 ] [ 21:04:07 ]<persell> This next one may split the server.....What video card support should be in the server?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:04:27 ]<persell> Think server....
12-14-98 ] [ 21:04:29 ]<Confed2> MATROX! :):):)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:04:58 ]<TheSeer> persell: i'm not that a big guy in gfx-stuff.. but is there a simple vesa-thing supported by all cards ?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:05:08 ]<Klaus> persell: Matrox with hardware Open-GL ,-)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:05:15 ]<persell> Good point TheSeer
12-14-98 ] [ 21:05:20 ]<Confed2> In all actuallity, strict VGA would be fine for a server sittin in the corner somewhere
12-14-98 ] [ 21:05:42 ]<lmadode> SciTech Display Doctor should be licenced for the client. Let the server run SVGA
12-14-98 ] [ 21:05:52 ]<persell> Do you run Open-GL on a server that averages 9 months up time?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:05:59 ]<_charly> Persell... i just want to do one question about aurora.... it does include WebSphere app server... what will happened to WebSphere Studio and the other part.... even more can we expect Net.Commerce for Aurora? )as a server i don't mind... just make it bootable in les than 15 minutes...:) ...)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:05:59 ]<vrbraun> TheSeer: as in qnx eg...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:06:19 ]<Swanee> S3 based, Matrox, the usual. PLUS, it might be worth a look at what SciTech is doing to support almost any card. (It's gradd based I believe)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:07:00 ]<TheSeer> for me i belive on a SERVER the VESA-standart should be enough..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:07:06 ]<persell> charly: probably gonna see Apache in the long run
12-14-98 ] [ 21:07:12 ]<TheSeer> the rest of the warp4-stuff with updated drivers maybe added..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:07:45 ]<TheSeer> persell: if ibm is going to add apache to os/2, *please* make it multithreading ;)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:07:48 ]<Confed2> The current selection of video is fine, no need to jiuce the video up, UNLESS, you are going to support games and such on it, which as we know, OS/2 doesn't have anything that can push the newer cards
12-14-98 ] [ 21:07:54 ]<persell> Now...what about the client
12-14-98 ] [ 21:08:21 ]<TheSeer> persell: for the client, the first thing needed is a switch res/colordepth on the FLY..!
12-14-98 ] [ 21:08:28 ]<Klaus> persell: I don't get the point of your graphics-driver question, IBM has developed lots of drivers (on devicedrivers online) why don't include all of them on the install CD ?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:08:38 ]<Confed2> TheSeer.....................YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12-14-98 ] [ 21:08:42 ]<Longstaff> persell....we're hoping for the client....hoping hard is all i can say
12-14-98 ] [ 21:08:56 ]<persell> Licensing Klaus
12-14-98 ] [ 21:09:26 ]<Confed2> Persell..........Till we have a firm commitment on the client, this could all be a MOOT POINT
12-14-98 ] [ 21:09:34 ]<Klaus> persell: you have to pay for adding these drivers on CD, even if we can download them for free?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:09:35 ]<Swanee> I'd say besides the companies that support OS/2, push new vendors into gradd based drivers or license SciTech's Display Doctor.
12-14-98 ] [ 21:09:55 ]<lmadode> persell: Is IBM thinking of limiting Warp Server to specific limited selection of hardware?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:10:00 ]<_charly> Persell.. but from Apache to Net.Commerce is one application long... and that application is IBM today... is the commitment to NT AIX Solaris and OS/400... will be a Net.Commerce for Aurora? )i do mind in the client... booting time is dead time for the ppl that works... we need all kind of drivers at the client)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:10:01 ]<vrbraun> IBM is paying licences to distribute drivers?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:10:18 ]<persell> I would guess that a client should have AGP...on the fly adjustments...DVD...I am getting hammered to support these on a server
12-14-98 ] [ 21:10:27 ]<Confed2> IBM needs to BUY SciTech's license and use them to do the graphics..........might be cheaper in the long run!!!
12-14-98 ] [ 21:10:43 ]<Sector> Support for the full range of hardware acceleration supported by the card (Open GL, ect).
12-14-98 ] [ 21:10:54 ]<Longstaff> confed2....you think so?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:11:00 ]<Confed2> If these are in a client, there would be NO NEED for them to be in the server!
12-14-98 ] [ 21:11:05 ]<lmadode> persell: but if you don't get them in on the Server will the client ever see them?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:11:05 ]<Klaus> persell: than maybee you can get a deal with SciTech and licence a limited Displaydoctor-version with a limit to... let's say 1024x768 with 256 colors ?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:11:07 ]<TheSeer> persell: that stuff is needef for a client but not for a server..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:11:32 ]<persell> We spent a ton of bucks and time on the fixpacks to keep up with this stuff
12-14-98 ] [ 21:11:54 ]<Confed2> Imadode..........Sure, the server wouldn't care what was going on, it just "SERVES"
12-14-98 ] [ 21:12:09 ]<Longstaff> persell....and that was a good decision because that's the cutting edge on hardware
12-14-98 ] [ 21:12:30 ]<lmadode> by see them I meant they will never be developed for the client.
12-14-98 ] [ 21:12:37 ]<persell> Welcome to my world
12-14-98 ] [ 21:12:51 ]<Confed2> Persell....License SciTech to do the drivers for now and in the future, then that relieves IBM of a MAJOR headache
12-14-98 ] [ 21:13:45 ]<persell> Next question...What should the LVM do?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:13:58 ]<Confed2> Imadode.........True, they should just make them for the client and leave it at that
12-14-98 ] [ 21:14:03 ]<TheSeer> Manage the Partitions ?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:14:08 ]<Confed2> RUN FASTER IN GUI MODE!
12-14-98 ] [ 21:14:10 ]<Swanee> Confed2: If Display Doctor is as good as advertised. Remember, we haven't even seen it physically yet.
12-14-98 ] [ 21:14:24 ]<fire> persell: Perform a Frame Windows resize exactly (LVMGUI). :-)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:14:26 ]<_charly> persell... LVM.. i just remembered Partition Magic...:)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:14:31 ]<Confed2> Swanee...........True Enuff..............We can only PRAY :)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:15:11 ]<lmadode> persell: does LVM mess with the MBR? Is that why it clobbers NT on the same machine?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:15:16 ]<TheSeer> persell: i wonder if it is possible to add a passwort-function to the bootmanager like many other free clones allready have..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:15:28 ]<Swanee> LVM should carry over old BM selections.
12-14-98 ] [ 21:15:39 ]<Klaus> persell: a hpfs->jfs conversion included in lvm would be cool to convert all these big drives on our servers
12-14-98 ] [ 21:15:59 ]<TheSeer> Klaus: good point :)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:16:26 ]<persell> lmadode: LVM doesn't...VCU does
12-14-98 ] [ 21:16:36 ]<lmadode> VCU?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:17:02 ]<persell> lmadode: NTFS reports itself as HPFS
12-14-98 ] [ 21:17:21 ]<persell> Volume Conversion Utility
12-14-98 ] [ 21:17:25 ]<Judy> trixer: sorry about that...that hostess doesn't have very good manners :)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:17:41 ]<Confed2> Make it a NATIVE OS/2 program for the GUI.................JAVA Stinks!
12-14-98 ] [ 21:17:56 ]<dink> java is sloww and crummy
12-14-98 ] [ 21:18:00 ]<TheSeer> persell: did you get my question about the passwort-thing ?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:18:02 ]<lmadode> It is slow
12-14-98 ] [ 21:18:04 ]<TheSeer> password even..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:18:07 ]<persell> Swanee: It does...and we're making it easier to use
12-14-98 ] [ 21:18:16 ]<trixer> but java is your friend
12-14-98 ] [ 21:18:17 ]<Swanee> Confed2: I was actually impressed with how well it ran.
12-14-98 ] [ 21:18:19 ]<persell> TheSeer: yep
12-14-98 ] [ 21:18:30 ]<TheSeer> ok :-)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:18:33 ]<Confed2> I think Swanee should make WarpZip in JAVA!
12-14-98 ] [ 21:18:52 ]<persell> Ouch
12-14-98 ] [ 21:18:58 ]<trixer> its not java thats slow, its the JVM(s) and JRE(s) that are slow
12-14-98 ] [ 21:19:19 ]<Swanee> persell: I hadn't had much luck with it in that respect but I was leery of trying too much. :)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:19:21 ]<TheSeer> persell: is there a way to add a - even simple - logon to the server before you can do anything special ?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:19:23 ]<persell> But its getting much better
12-14-98 ] [ 21:19:48 ]<_charly> trixer... for the user is Java...:)... What about Java 3d API for Warp on Aurora or clients to come???
12-14-98 ] [ 21:19:50 ]<TheSeer> persell: doing the lockup on start is an "ugly" workaround to achive some kind of security..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:20:01 ]<Klaus> persell: does lvm allow to acces more than one primary partition on one HD at the same time? (mount primary1 as C: and primary2 as D:) ?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:20:22 ]<persell> TheSeer: Nope...unless WSOD
12-14-98 ] [ 21:20:22 ]<Swanee> Klaus: Yes...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:20:22 ]<Confed2> Yes, but until SUN can get M$ to comply, they will be throwing to many resources at the court and not pushing forward as fast as they could
12-14-98 ] [ 21:20:40 ]<persell> Klaus: Intel architecture doesn't
12-14-98 ] [ 21:21:08 ]<Klaus> persell: linux can (on x86 machines)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:21:09 ]<TheSeer> persell: so if the screen is not locked a freak can still access the whole system if he gets in touch with the local console ? wow ;-/
12-14-98 ] [ 21:21:20 ]<Swanee> Klaus: Oops, I have two available but on different drives
12-14-98 ] [ 21:21:24 ]<fire> persell: The process of creating a LV isn't very intuitive IMHO (at least with LVM, I didn't test it with LVMGUI so far)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:21:24 ]<_charly> Persell... what about Java 3D API support?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:21:29 ]<persell> That would imply booting two separate MBRs
12-14-98 ] [ 21:21:57 ]<fire> persell: ... a LV that spreads over several partitions...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:22:08 ]<persell> TheSeer: The hooks are in Warp 4 and Aurora for SES applications
12-14-98 ] [ 21:22:21 ]<_charly> i would like to see a partition merger utility...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:22:26 ]<Klaus> persell: and linux might be a alternative to Aurora for some customers
12-14-98 ] [ 21:22:34 ]<TheSeer> persell: i know about that hooks.. but i can't understand why ibm does not use them ;)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:22:56 ]<persell> charly: I wish
12-14-98 ] [ 21:23:01 ]<TheSeer> persell: another thing.. i have ProcessCommander for my client here. It there a ps & kill for aurora coming ? ( badly needed to start/stop apps from telnet )
12-14-98 ] [ 21:23:51 ]<_charly> YES... The Seer... you just read my mind.... I need a kill command unix like.... as part of the OS...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:23:53 ]<fire> persell: LVM should also be able to *reduce* a LV in size.
12-14-98 ] [ 21:24:09 ]<Swanee> persell: One other thing on LVM... A little more textual advice on what is happening during the installation would be nice.
12-14-98 ] [ 21:24:37 ]<Confed2> Yea, with PQ leaving OS/2 in the dust, we have to rely on outdated software to get the job done
12-14-98 ] [ 21:24:39 ]<persell> TheSeer: I use PC too. I haven't seen plans for an IBM product. Watchcat and PC are still gonna be around
12-14-98 ] [ 21:24:41 ]<Klaus> TheSeer/_charly: a kill -9 would be nice.. so we don't have to reboot if some dll is blocked and can't be killed!
12-14-98 ] [ 21:25:20 ]<TheSeer> persell: where's the problem to implement that into os/2 ? that pstat is a joke but not a usefull app ..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:25:23 ]<_charly> I also want a simplier way to see the proceses.... like a pstat /main
12-14-98 ] [ 21:25:42 ]<_charly> or something that only show the parent processes names and IDS
12-14-98 ] [ 21:25:43 ]<persell> TheSeer: Time and money again
12-14-98 ] [ 21:25:47 ]<Confed2> Kinda like Hardware "MANAGER" neat but not very useful
12-14-98 ] [ 21:25:51 ]<TheSeer> persell: i guess if stardock does a warp client they won't mind to give you the ps /kill of PC..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:26:23 ]<TheSeer> Confed2: Hardware-manger is nothing but just crap ;) rmview is still better..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:26:30 ]<persell> Why do you want all the applications in the OS...?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:27:00 ]* TheSeer wonders who came up with the name MANGAGER since it's just a dump viewer..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:27:05 ]<_charly> persell... that are not apps... they are utilities...:)... you need them to get the OS up and running
12-14-98 ] [ 21:27:27 ]<Klaus> persell: it's cool to install warp and work with it without adding 100Meg's of useful tools .-)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:27:38 ]<TheSeer> persell: if i have to administrate a server i *REALLY* don't want to drive all the way to that system just to kill a task..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:27:48 ]<Confed2> Obiqutios (sp) programs are still a long ways off and until we have a client version, so we need apps to be available today, not in the future
12-14-98 ] [ 21:27:50 ]<TheSeer> persell: so a "kill" is baaaaaadly needed..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:27:50 ]<persell> The ISV's would argue on both of those points
12-14-98 ] [ 21:27:53 ]<_charly> can i change the Works app for the kill and the pstat /main???
12-14-98 ] [ 21:27:56 ]<Klaus> persell: and on some big installations most of our customers don't like shareware like watchcat, they want IBM software
12-14-98 ] [ 21:28:16 ]<persell> PC is watchcat
12-14-98 ] [ 21:28:33 ]<TheSeer> it's based on it yes. but it's not IBM.
12-14-98 ] [ 21:29:01 ]* trixer is away: [idle for [10 minutes]] (l:on, p:off)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:29:01 ]<Confed2> Yea, it's kinda hard to sell a machine with SHAREWARE to rely on for basic functionality
12-14-98 ] [ 21:29:08 ]<TheSeer> people are lauphing at you if you can't kill a task from outside without installing a 3rd party app..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:29:51 ]<fire> Did anyone manage to use Linux' NFS server with Aurora Preview's NFS 3.0 client?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:29:53 ]<Confed2> Ahhh, but people also laugh at you when they find out you are running OS/2 :)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:30:01 ]<persell> Look up VAResearch Thom
12-14-98 ] [ 21:30:06 ]<Judy> the developer of watchcat assisted stardock with the development of PC
12-14-98 ] [ 21:30:07 ]<TheSeer> laughing even
12-14-98 ] [ 21:30:12 ]<_charly> is just basic utilitie... named one serius OS that don't have a kill utility??? (besides OS/2)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:30:15 ]* TheSeer is sorry, but it's geting late here..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:30:44 ]<fire> WarpCenter has a kill utility. ;)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:30:58 ]<Confed2> Quick run down.........26400 stinks
12-14-98 ] [ 21:31:13 ]<_charly> but Warp Center does not work when PM is blocked...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:31:26 ]<Longstaff> functionality determines quality....if a thing works it doesn't matter who thought of it or how rich they are
12-14-98 ] [ 21:31:30 ]<TheSeer> and warpCenter can't be used via telnet..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:31:34 ]<Confed2> I mean I will take your word for it, I'm just going by what my customers say to me
12-14-98 ] [ 21:31:36 ]<persell> The TCPIP stack, LVM, and some of the device drivers are gewtting rebuilt
12-14-98 ] [ 21:31:55 ]<Klaus> persell / fire: even enabling the sc-kill-feature by default would be a good start
12-14-98 ] [ 21:32:27 ]<lmadode> There is the WC process kill utility in Warp. they just don't always work. And to be honest now that Netscape/2 has calmed down a bit, how often do you have such lockups?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:32:42 ]<persell> The reason I asked what I did was that the ISV's are claiming the OS/2 market is gone
12-14-98 ] [ 21:32:54 ]<_charly> And some errors like Drive not ready shouldn't make a message on the system console (graphic display)....
12-14-98 ] [ 21:33:13 ]<persell> If everything is in the OS....they're right
12-14-98 ] [ 21:33:14 ]<fire> _charly: AUTOFAIL=YES
12-14-98 ] [ 21:33:24 ]<TheSeer> if IBM does not stop to force people to move to NT for some strange reason that'll be true in near future..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:33:33 ]<_charly> i mean if i made a telnet and i make a f: drive change to a zip drive and it is not ready...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:33:37 ]<Klaus> lmadode: Java and Notes do lock my machine...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:33:52 ]<TheSeer> persell: not everything. we're talking about a KILL for heavens sake...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:33:52 ]<_charly> i can be at home... i no one at work will press enter for me at the machine at work....
12-14-98 ] [ 21:33:55 ]<Confed2> True....but if you can't get it from 3rd party.......why pursue it at all?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:34:18 ]<Longstaff> persell....whenever a good practical warp app debuts you can feel the excitement
12-14-98 ] [ 21:34:49 ]<Confed2> It's getting to the point where OS/2 might be advanced when you get down to the nuts and bolts, but on the outside (where most everyone is) OS/2 is looking like a relic
12-14-98 ] [ 21:34:52 ]* lmadode runs MOTE on aurora. :-)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:34:58 ]<TheSeer> persell: charly had a good point. there should be a way to handle errors different if you are on a telnet-login...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:35:11 ]<persell> Someone earlier asked about the December 18th date...the code will not time bomb. Websphere might after 30 days. The December 18 date is for the support for the 200 beta customers
12-14-98 ] [ 21:35:29 ]<persell> How is MOTE Mark?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:35:47 ]<fire> Will there be another preview before the GA?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:36:07 ]<lmadode> persell: you can read all about it in the December VOICE Newsletter tomorrow. ;-)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:36:12 ]<persell> I don't think there will be another preview
12-14-98 ] [ 21:36:44 ]<persell> This 5800 copy release was costly
12-14-98 ] [ 21:37:02 ]<Judy> <---signed up
12-14-98 ] [ 21:37:07 ]<Judy> <----didn't recieve
12-14-98 ] [ 21:37:19 ]<lmadode> Why didn't IBm charge for the beta like m$ does?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:37:22 ]<Klaus> persell: for me a downlable 2nd beta via FTP would be OK too ,-)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:37:23 ]<lmadode> :-)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:37:35 ]<Judy> receive either
12-14-98 ] [ 21:37:51 ]<Confed2> Yea, ME TOO! Gotta love Cable Modems!
12-14-98 ] [ 21:38:06 ]<_charly> Imadode... cause the Beta market is also an MS market...:)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:38:14 ]<persell> lmadode: We usually don't
12-14-98 ] [ 21:38:43 ]<persell> This was truely a beta...you don't charge for unfinished code
12-14-98 ] [ 21:38:54 ]* lmadode was referring to the buggy stuff m$ passes off as GA code.
12-14-98 ] [ 21:38:57 ]<Confed2> OK, then how about a fix for my Netscape Communicator/2???? LOLOLOLOLOL
12-14-98 ] [ 21:39:05 ]<Klaus> persell: so make always the latest beta downloadable from boulder... it would not be that expensive for you.
12-14-98 ] [ 21:39:22 ]<TheSeer> lmadode: *eg*
12-14-98 ] [ 21:39:44 ]* TheSeer now understands why the Communicator/2 is free...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:39:51 ]<Confed2> Persell.....He does have a point, and FTP'ble 2nd preview would be very cost effective
12-14-98 ] [ 21:39:53 ]<_charly> persell... what can we do to help IBM with Aurora and Warp clients???
12-14-98 ] [ 21:40:19 ]<_charly> after all, if i am an IBM business partner i want to have IBM products on my clients...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:40:34 ]<Confed2> TheSeer.....Question is..........For how long not that AOL has control!
12-14-98 ] [ 21:40:52 ]<_charly> but if i have to sell MS (i have to came back to Net.Commerce) then they will get MS products...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:40:53 ]<TheSeer> Confed2: the /2-Version is copyright IBM though.. (afaik )
12-14-98 ] [ 21:41:20 ]<persell> Klaus: you're right...I'm trying
12-14-98 ] [ 21:41:47 ]<Confed2> Well...I already know about NS/2, I just wanted to bring it up here so that Mike could tell you all what he has already told me.....he's better at it :)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:42:43 ]<persell> charly: Keep telling your reps you have customers that will buy clients
12-14-98 ] [ 21:43:23 ]<Longstaff> _charly - please tell them i'll buy several too
12-14-98 ] [ 21:43:30 ]<Confed2> MIke...........Your my Rep....................."THEY WILL BUY CLIENTS"
12-14-98 ] [ 21:44:00 ]<Confed2> :0
12-14-98 ] [ 21:44:00 ]<_charly> i can tell you... if you give me clients i will sell clients.....:)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:44:36 ]<Confed2> For me, that's all I send out the door.........I have yet to sell a SERVER version of OS/2
12-14-98 ] [ 21:45:28 ]<_charly> just thing in banks on Mexico... lot of them had bought (what ever) WSOD and fat clients recently.... just to name; BITAL, INVERLAT, BBV, Santander, and other that are "minor banks"
12-14-98 ] [ 21:46:15 ]<_charly> what else? with Star Office i can sell clients to nayone without the "Office excuse"....
12-14-98 ] [ 21:46:44 ]<_charly> (i have to say is a shame IBM didn't make a good suite for Warp as Stardivision)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:47:12 ]<persell> I will sit here and not insult SS
12-14-98 ] [ 21:47:18 ]<Klaus> _charly: IBM-Germany had a contract with StarDivision... but got blocked from IBM-USA .-(((
12-14-98 ] [ 21:47:53 ]<persell> I will sit here and not insult SS
12-14-98 ] [ 21:48:13 ]<Joc_> ss?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:48:20 ]<_charly> persell... i did liked SS before i saw StarOffice... i am not insulting SS, but is far away from any SS for Windows for example...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:48:27 ]<Klaus> Joc_: SmartSuite ?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:48:29 ]<fire> persell: It would be great to have some advice about CID installation of pristine clients with Aurora where some parts reside on JFS.
12-14-98 ] [ 21:48:35 ]<TheSeer> persell: another problem i read in a german mag ( C't ). they tested the beta with NT.. they had problems to "re-export" a networkdrive mapped from an NT-Server..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:48:36 ]<_charly> Organizer is not for Workgroups....
12-14-98 ] [ 21:48:50 ]<_charly> and we have no Screen cam...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:49:00 ]<persell> fire: The CID hasn't changed
12-14-98 ] [ 21:49:14 ]<lmadode> folks let's keep it to Aurora
12-14-98 ] [ 21:49:14 ]* Confed2 Wants an OS/2 Native of Organizer!
12-14-98 ] [ 21:49:21 ]<Klaus> persell: I love WordPro, but it crashes much to often...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:49:38 ]<Judy> Confed2: me too...so I'm looking forward to the speakup on Relish
12-14-98 ] [ 21:49:44 ]<_charly> Confed there's one native version on the last SS but is not workgoupable...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:49:56 ]<fire> persell: What about "FormatJFS"?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:49:58 ]<persell> fire: Remember that HPFS386 is better at NetBIOS though
12-14-98 ] [ 21:50:02 ]<TheSeer> persell: StarOffice runs on OS/2 without having a special version of a fixpack aplied..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:50:03 ]* KoolAde From what I can see it that I have'nt been able to learn much about Auroa due to jumping all around
12-14-98 ] [ 21:50:22 ]* Confed2 Never had a need for one until recently..........Older versions YUK :)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:50:31 ]<_charly> the point is persell... the office is there... now we want to see IBM to push Warp...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:50:45 ]<persell> WE are adding some strength to the format exe fire
12-14-98 ] [ 21:50:49 ]<_charly> and i think i am not the only one fighting alone... i now you are...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:50:55 ]<_charly> and we want to know how to help
12-14-98 ] [ 21:51:00 ]* Longstaff participated in the SS beta and uses it for office stuff
12-14-98 ] [ 21:51:18 ]<fire> persell: Watching HPFS's chkdsk checking 8+ GB of disk space is very gripping... ;->
12-14-98 ] [ 21:51:20 ]<Confed2> OS/2 pushed people to office type setups, with it's stability, now IBM needs to give them want the offices want
12-14-98 ] [ 21:51:24 ]<trixer> What advantages would Aurora have over Other OS's like Linux?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:51:35 ]<persell> Aren't we talking about a beta of a new OS/2 Server with new technology? We're fighting...
12-14-98 ] [ 21:51:48 ]<Klaus> persell: adding an Undelete Like File-Phoenix (phoenix with >2G support and JFS-Support) to Aurora would be nice any chances for that ?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:52:13 ]<_charly> Klaus i agree.. undelete can be helpfull....:)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:52:19 ]<persell> trixer: Solid NetBIOS server
12-14-98 ] [ 21:52:23 ]<Confed2> Yes, the Offices want a Client........This you can use for the Client debate in house :)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:53:02 ]<trixer> persell, explain
12-14-98 ] [ 21:53:03 ]<persell> Klaus: The undelete is being rebuilt to take advantage of the JFS
12-14-98 ] [ 21:53:13 ]<_charly> persell... why don't give support to SOM again???? i mean SOM is already part of the system... will it have support???
12-14-98 ] [ 21:53:50 ]<TheSeer> persell: what about the doip ? does it support ISDN, redial and stuff or do i still need to install a "better" app for it ?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:54:14 ]<_charly> After all.. IBM steps are looking after CORBA....
12-14-98 ] [ 21:54:16 ]<Confed2> OH! Persell.............How is Open GL coming for Aurora? This is something that really needs fixing! I have a few programs that need it
12-14-98 ] [ 21:54:20 ]<persell> trixer: an SMB server...file and print
12-14-98 ] [ 21:54:30 ]<persell> charly: SOM never left
12-14-98 ] [ 21:54:44 ]<Joc_> persell, any idea how many copies of Aurora is expected to be sold? 10k? 100k? 1M?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:54:49 ]<_charly> ok... that's a relif as a developer...:)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:54:53 ]<trixer> persell, I feel that samba is pretty solid, maybe I'm missing something here
12-14-98 ] [ 21:55:08 ]<persell> TheSeer: Low priority on a server
12-14-98 ] [ 21:55:26 ]<TheSeer> persell: depends on what you use that server for ;) but ok..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:56:11 ]<trixer> persell, remember, I use warp at work on a mixed network of NT, 95, 98 Solaris BSD and linux
12-14-98 ] [ 21:56:19 ]<persell> trixer: multiple domains, aliasing, multiple workgroups, scalable for file and print
12-14-98 ] [ 21:56:45 ]<TheSeer> not to forget comport-sharing ;)
12-14-98 ] [ 21:56:51 ]* TheSeer wonders if a windoze-client can use a shared comport now..
12-14-98 ] [ 21:56:57 ]<persell> Big point TheSeer
12-14-98 ] [ 21:57:19 ]<Confed2> Just think, if someone was ingenious enough, they could get all the shareware and commercial products on one CD and distribute it as the OS/2 Add-On package, with this they could correct all the bugs in the current client and market it as
12-14-98 ] [ 21:57:20 ]<_charly> I am a little confussed,,, when you target Aurora for a server what kind of server are you thinking???? can you describe the functionalities of aurora in a short brief???
12-14-98 ] [ 21:57:27 ]<TheSeer> Can any other OS take advantage of the shared comport btw ?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:57:36 ]<Confed2> "What OS/2 v5 should be!"
12-14-98 ] [ 21:58:02 ]<_charly> File sharing server???
12-14-98 ] [ 21:58:11 ]<_charly> Comunication server?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:58:17 ]<_charly> proxy Server?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:58:24 ]<_charly> e-commerce Server?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:58:34 ]<_charly> printing server?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:58:40 ]<_charly> none of the above?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:58:49 ]<Confed2> All of the above?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:58:57 ]<persell> charly: Aurora is a newer Warp Server which is a highly reliable SMB server with an average of 9 months between reboots and is a platform for All the above
12-14-98 ] [ 21:59:27 ]<Confed2> modeled after the Warp v4 client.........correct?
12-14-98 ] [ 21:59:32 ]<Joc_> persell, any idea how many copies of Aurora is expected to be sold? 10k? 100k? 1M?
12-14-98 ] [ 22:00:03 ]<trixer> persell, netbios being a Layer-3 protocol, I think all netbios servers, daemons or whatever you want to call them are all the same. The performance depends on the hardware. This of course is my opinion and not based on fact.
12-14-98 ] [ 22:00:14 ]<persell> More than 10k Joc
12-14-98 ] [ 22:00:17 ]<fire> persell: How can I determine uptime on Aurora?
12-14-98 ] [ 22:00:43 ]<TheSeer> fire: get a software form an ISV *eg*
12-14-98 ] [ 22:00:52 ]<persell> trixer: NEtBIOS uses Ring 0 with HPFS386 in Warp Server
12-14-98 ] [ 22:01:15 ]<persell> fire: I wouldn't yet...its a beta
12-14-98 ] [ 22:01:19 ]<TheSeer> fire: IBM does not want to stop ISV's to develop usefull things... (sorry Mike, still can't understand why os/2 does not ship with these smal things )
12-14-98 ] [ 22:01:59 ]<_charly> does bidirectional printing is enhaced for Aurora?
12-14-98 ] [ 22:02:34 ]<persell> charly: yes via the PAR1284.SYS driver
12-14-98 ] [ 22:02:35 ]<trixer> persell; I'm not trying to be difficult, really, I would like to know as much as I can about Aurora. Please enlighten me. :-)
12-14-98 ] [ 22:02:39 ]<fire> persell: Ok, how can I determine uptime on Warp Server v4? All uptime ports I know start counting with 0 again after 42 days or so.
12-14-98 ] [ 22:03:06 ]<Confed2> One thing the SERVER does need..........PRINTER DRIVERS! and they have to support the latest printers and all their options
12-14-98 ] [ 22:03:10 ]<persell> trixer: There's a great set of white papers at www.ibm.com/os/warp
12-14-98 ] [ 22:03:26 ]<_charly> Scanner support can be expected on the drivers part?
12-14-98 ] [ 22:03:29 ]<persell> Ooooops: www.software.ibm.com/os/warp
12-14-98 ] [ 22:03:58 ]<persell> charly: This is a server. I doubt you're see scanner support
12-14-98 ] [ 22:04:10 ]<TheSeer> persell: btw.. printers.. how about enabling a download of non-os/2-drivers for the specific client ? (like you can get a w95-driver even it's an NT-Server )
12-14-98 ] [ 22:04:17 ]<trixer> how large of a drive can HPFS386 support now? I forgot
12-14-98 ] [ 22:04:26 ]<Confed2> Yes......We will need scanner support....But like Mike told me.....it's very hard to make a GENERIC type driver to cover all scanners....so I don't expect it
12-14-98 ] [ 22:05:04 ]<TheSeer> you won't need a scanner-support on a server anyway do u ?
12-14-98 ] [ 22:05:17 ]<fire> trixer: 64GB AFAIK. But how long will it take to check 64GB after a system crash?
12-14-98 ] [ 22:05:20 ]<persell> TheSeer: I believe we've done that in Warp Server
12-14-98 ] [ 22:05:50 ]<Confed2> That really depends on how you distribute the loads on your network........it could be the only place to put it
12-14-98 ] [ 22:06:42 ]<TheSeer> persell: another question: i sometimes (actually the notes5-beta died ;) have blocked dll's .. how can i get rid of them ?
12-14-98 ] [ 22:07:03 ]<TheSeer> persell: without rebooting the system though..
12-14-98 ] [ 22:07:40 ]<Klaus> persell: it would be VERRY nice if i could kill blocked DLLs with WatchCat/PC could you add something on Aurora that we can make a "Kill -9" ?
12-14-98 ] [ 22:07:40 ]<Judy> well, folks...it's been a long day for Mike, so we're going to wrap this up for tonig
12-14-98 ] [ 22:07:53 ]<TheSeer> Judy: grmpf..
12-14-98 ] [ 22:08:01 ]<Judy> Persell: Thanks again for providing information and assistance to the OS/2 community!!!
12-14-98 ] [ 22:08:04 ]<Confed2> Anything that does not run in Ring-0 should be able to be unloaded? True? Possible?
12-14-98 ] [ 22:08:09 ]<_charly> Persell... any way to contact you???
12-14-98 ] [ 22:08:12 ]<Swanee> Yep, I think it's time to give Mike a break if he needs it. I'm sure his typing finger is bleeding by now. You are welcome to stay and chat.
12-14-98 ] [ 22:08:37 ]<lmadode> How many people here are actually running Aurora?
12-14-98 ] [ 22:08:45 ]<persell> charly: mpersell@us.ibm.com
12-14-98 ] [ 22:09:01 ]* lmadode <- running Aurora
12-14-98 ] [ 22:09:03 ]<TheSeer> persell: are we allowed to bother you ? *g*
12-14-98 ] [ 22:09:06 ]<_charly> thanx for all...
12-14-98 ] [ 22:09:13 ]<Judy> Persell: can we expect another return visit after Aurora goes GA?
12-14-98 ] [ 22:09:27 ]* fire is running aurora
12-14-98 ] [ 22:10:16 ]<fire> persell: thanks a lot!
12-14-98 ] [ 22:10:16 ]* Confed2 is running Aurora but going back to v4 to run Communicator with plugins
12-14-98 ] [ 22:10:16 ]<persell> I am often on outside OS/2 projects...but I always read the e-mail. Be aware some answers I might have to search for
12-14-98 ] [ 22:10:16 ]<trixer> persell; nice meeting you
12-14-98 ] [ 22:10:16 ]* Klaus tried to run Aurora
12-14-98 ] [ 22:10:39 ]<persell> Thanks for inviting me back Judy
12-14-98 ] [ 22:10:43 ]<Judy> <-- really did meet persell :)
12-14-98 ] [ 22:10:47 ]<KoolAde> Well thank you persell :)
12-14-98 ] [ 22:11:06 ]* Swanee is running Warp4 but has Aurora installed on another machine.
12-14-98 ] [ 22:11:07 ]<Joc_> Thanks for coming! :)
12-14-98 ] [ 22:11:15 ]<Klaus> persell: thanks for comming, nice to meet you
12-14-98 ] [ 22:11:23 ]<_charly> Thanx for comming Persell...
12-14-98 ] [ 22:11:42 ]<Swanee> Great to have you Mike, Thanks!
12-14-98 ] [ 22:11:42 ]<KoolAde> I just hope we did'nt scare you away with all the MS and NT stuff
12-14-98 ] [ 22:11:43 ]<persell> Judy: You guys didn't take pictures at Warpstock 97 did you?
12-14-98 ] [ 22:11:44 ]<TheSeer> persell: is there anything we have changed / helped with ?
12-14-98 ] [ 22:12:07 ]<persell> TheSeer: I always send feedback to Austin
12-14-98 ] [ 22:12:12 ]<_charly> persell... lokk at Warpstock site...:)
12-14-98 ] [ 22:12:20 ]<Judy> persell: yes, Mike Briggs and one of the SCOUG guys took alot of pics
12-14-98 ] [ 22:12:30 ]<Swanee> Judy: You met Mike? At WS 97 or 98? (I missed out on 97)
12-14-98 ] [ 22:12:33 ]<Judy> SCOUG=Tony Anton
12-14-98 ] [ 22:12:48 ]<Judy> swanee: ws97
12-14-98 ] [ 22:12:51 ]<persell> I did a talk on device drivers at 97
12-14-98 ] [ 22:13:05 ]<_charly> i did missed 98...:(((((
12-14-98 ] [ 22:13:10 ]<TheSeer> persell: maybe i can add one thing ?
12-14-98 ] [ 22:13:18 ]<persell> go ahead
12-14-98 ] [ 22:13:29 ]<_charly> persell... i was ... Mr... FLT??? or DRV... or SYS... or Kernetl....
12-14-98 ] [ 22:13:37 ]<_charly> i don't remember...:)
12-14-98 ] [ 22:13:52 ]<TheSeer> persell: thanx ;) One thing i LOVE on Linux is that you don't have to restart the system for anything except hardware-changes.
12-14-98 ] [ 22:13:57 ]<Confed2> Ok, well I got you all beat, I talk to Persell all the time :):):):LOLOOLOLOLOL
12-14-98 ] [ 22:14:08 ]<TheSeer> persell: the most time i have to restart os/2 is because of changes to the libpath.
12-14-98 ] [ 22:14:21 ]<TheSeer> persell: using tvfs this is not needed.. ;)
12-14-98 ] [ 22:15:07 ]<TheSeer> persell: it might be a HELL of a lot faster and easier to maintain then.. (installing app's without breaking the network-support )
12-14-98 ] [ 22:15:13 ]<persell> That's a major rebuild of the kernel for VFS TheSeer...one bite at a time
12-14-98 ] [ 22:15:30 ]<persell> You missed Tom?
12-14-98 ] [ 22:15:32 ]<TheSeer> persell: you already have TVFS.. :)
12-14-98 ] [ 22:15:50 ]<TheSeer> just an idea though ;-)
12-14-98 ] [ 22:16:14 ]<persell> JFS is not quite VFS
12-14-98 ] [ 22:16:14 ]<Swanee> persell: well... yeah... :)
12-14-98 ] [ 22:16:46 ]<TheSeer> btw idea.. *g* can you reboot aurora from comandline without clicking OK now ?
12-14-98 ] [ 22:16:46 ]<persell> Tom's a lot of fun
12-14-98 ] [ 22:16:46 ]<persell> Nope
12-14-98 ] [ 22:16:46 ]<TheSeer> like a "shutdown -r now" -feature..
12-14-98 ] [ 22:16:56 ]<persell> You Unix guys are never satisfied
12-14-98 ] [ 22:16:59 ]<Schlappi> TheSeer: setboot /b ?
12-14-98 ] [ 22:17:20 ]<TheSeer> persell: *g* i'm the biggest OS/2-enthusiast known here ;)
12-14-98 ] [ 22:17:46 ]<Swanee> persell: I must have been in the wrong places at the wrong times. I really met alot of great folks though.
12-14-98 ] [ 22:17:46 ]<TheSeer> persell: but i need some kind of help for remote-admin-stuff (i maintain some os/2-boxes i can dial in form my office )
12-14-98 ] [ 22:17:46 ]<_charly> persell... what happened with all the old AIX for PC stuff???
12-14-98 ] [ 22:17:46 ]<Confed2> Persell, how about a better shutdown routine in Aurora, Like maybe immediate without user intervention!
12-14-98 ] [ 22:17:49 ]<Klaus> persell: if you'd release the WPS for X I would be satisfied ,-)
12-14-98 ] [ 22:18:19 ]<persell> Keep asking and I'll keep trying...you haven't a guy in LA named Don Bowers he's really big!!! ;)
12-14-98 ] [ 22:18:23 ]<TheSeer> persell: and i sometimes need to call a guy to hit ctrl-alt-del to reboot the system since i can't do it from here.. -> SUXX ,9
12-14-98 ] [ 22:18:58 ]<Swanee> Confed2: Actually for shutdown, there should be a choice of shutdown types and a "process killer" :)
12-14-98 ] [ 22:19:03 ]* Confed2 thinks the shutdow routine in M$ is it's BEST feature!
12-14-98 ] [ 22:19:06 ]<persell> Gotta go...thanks for the continued support of OS/2 and the helpful suggestions