SpeakUp with Sundial Systems (Topic: Relish) from 12/6/99

<DSOMber1>  Hello all.
<WarpHoss>  Hola everyone.
<Sector>  Hi WarpHoss
<warpit>  hello anybody there?
<WarpHoss>  ahh hello warpit.
<Sector>  Umm, yup
<warpit>  im a newbie at this
<warpit>  but i am a warper
<Projects>  warpit: no longer a newbie... you've made it this far :)
<warpit>  so whats up?
<Sector>  Hi lmaxson
<Sector>  Welcome randell
<lmaxson>  Hi, Andrew, Randell.
<Sector>  Welcoem rwhite
<rwhite>  Hello!
<randell>  Hi all!
<lmaxson>  Hi, Rollin.
<lmaxson>  Hi, Rumple.
<lmaxson>  Hi, Dallas.
<WarpHoss>  hullo rwhite 'Relish'ing your time I suspect.
<rwhite>  Of course!
<lmaxson>  Hi, Abel.
<WarpHoss>  hello lynn.
<Rumple>  g'day all
<lmaxson>  A voice from down under.
<Rumple>  just switched back to the client (work is such a distraction)
<Sector>  MODE +o Swanee
</tt>
* Sector is resetting clocks... *
<Projects>  MODE +o dervish
<Swanee>  Hi all [Sector: Better late than never :-)]
<Sector>  I know my clocks have to be off if your hear already...
<Swanee>  Sector: Mine show that I am late!
<Swanee>  Hi Zoltan
<Zoltan>  Hi
<Sector>  But only one minute
<Sector>  *** Swanee (swanee@bay4-11.daktel.com) has joined [17:01:39]
<dervish>  Hi everyone!
<Projects>  Dock him 15 minutes pay...
<DoubleT>  hi, dervish
<Swanee>  Sector: Swanee (swanee@bay4-11.daktel.com) has joined [19:04]
<DSOMber1>  Greetings people.
<Sector>  Ok Projects that's your responsibility
<Swanee>  Hi DSOMber1
<Sector>  Ok Swanee you're clock is slow...
<Swanee>  or fast...
<Abraxas>  Well, it looks like we are about ready to start :-)
<Sector>  Yeah, your slow your clock is fast...
<Sector>  Hi Abraxas
<Abraxas>  I'd like to welcome Randell and Rollin from Sundial Systems to our chat session, tonight
</tt>
* Swanee sits quietly in his pew... PEW!!! *
<randell>  Thanks once again for having us!
<Projects>  our pleasure :)
<Abraxas>  The main focus, tonight, is on Relish ... but I'm sure there will be room for conversation on Junk Spy later on :-)
<randell>  Oh *Relish*... never heard of it!
<Abraxas>  Welcome to everyone here ... and I'll let Sundial "have the floor" :-)
</tt>
* Sector thinks randell needs some ECC memory... *
<randell>  Well, I guess I should get started...
<Sector>  MODE +o madodel0
<randell>  Yes, tonight we'll mainly be focusing on Relish... but, as time permits, we'll also welcome questions (later)
<randell>  about our other products as well.
</tt>
* Sector thought randell had never heard of *Relish*... *
<randell>  I'm not going to spend alot of time explaining what Relish is...
<randell>  But I'm *am* going to spend some time on where Relish is going...
<randell>  It's been a *very* long time since we've done a significant update to Relish.
<randell>  And there are several reasons for that.
<randell>  First, it's darn stable and not in the need of many bug fixes.
<randell>  Second, we've had to spend alot of time on our other products as we've brought them into the family.
<randell>  And, third, there's not a *single* feature that we could add to Relish to make it more useful!
<randell>  Well, not a *single* feature... but many (as with almost any product on the market today).
<randell>  Now, to make it clear, we are *not* here to announce anything about Relish tonight.
<randell>  But we have been working on the upgrade for a *very* long time...
<randell>  We haven't really talked too much about all the specific features in the upgrade...
<randell>  and some of that is what I'd like us to cover tonight.
<randell>  But rather than list them all here...
<randell>  Some of you might be interested in taking a look at the following URL:
<randell>  http://www.sundialsystems.com/relish23preview.html
<randell>  (Please, not everybody at once.)
<Abraxas>  404 not found
<rwhite>  http://www.sundialsystems.com/relish/relish23preview.html
<Swanee>  The requested URL /relish23preview.html was not found on this server.
<Abraxas>  That one worked, rwhite
<randell>  (Ooopps, my error... you would think I could get it right.)
<Swanee>  randell might say, "I hate when that happens..." :-)
<randell>  (Yes it's what Rolling corrected it to.)
<randell>  (Back to our regularly scheduled program.)
<randell>  As I was saying, it lists *some* of what we are including in 2.3.
<randell>  Much of that is based on customer requests and feedback we've received since 2.2 shipped.
<randell>  Some of the predate 2.2 things that got "cut" from the 2.2 list before release.
<randell>  Just to highlight some of the most important...
<randell>  TCP/IP support; vCard/vCalendar support, log-style notes, area code lookup, enhance phone call support
<randell>  But before I spend any time on any of those in detail, perhaps it's a good time to open it up for questions/comments?
<DavidA>  Any change of Palm support?
<DavidA>  change=chance
<rwhite>  At Warpstock we demonstrated preliminary Pilot support...
<rwhite>  We are continuing to develop said support, but it will probably be packaged seperate from Relish 2.3
<randell>  It's not a feature of the product *itself*, but an add on that will be separately licensed
<randell>  (As I said, what you see in the preview page isn't *everything* we are planning.)
<rwhite>  The cool part of the support is that you can control direction, which modules are synced, and what ranges of notes are synced.
<randell>  We *know* people are waitng for the Pilot support... and it's high on our priority list.
<DavidA>  Does "separate" imply "after"?
<DoubleT>  Are you able to map to the four main palm apps - todo, datebook, address, and memos?
<rwhite>  Could be before too.
<randell>  DavidA, No.
<rwhite>  DoubleT, yes. We're still working on some of the finer points of each app, but in principle we can map all four.
<randell>  We are doing what we can to keep the Pilot support and the 2.3 Release on separate schedules but they are partly tied together by the internals.
<DoubleT>  Is it a separate exe or does it somehow integrate with the Relish menu options?
<warpit>  will it talk to all palm tops III, IV, V????
<rwhite>  It utilizes the JsyncManager product to manager the sync process. We've provided a jConduit that has it's own menus and dialogs.
<rwhite>  Warpit, in theory yes. We still have some testing, but Jsync handles most of the differences for us.
<randell>  It's also key that you can filter what Relish info you want in the Pilot... since you may have *way* more info in Relish that you can practically carry around.
<DavidA>  Will the conduit be extensible? I use a different todo and memo program, and 'twould be nice to integrate them with Relish. Not expected, but nice.
<DoubleT>  Good choice using JsyncManager.
<rwhite>  Still looking into that. Some of the programs use the standard database and then store the extras elsewhere. Which apps do you use?
<DavidA>  MemoPlus and ToDoPlus
<rwhite>  We'll be looking at them all - My guess is we'll be able to support a subset, but not all of the features of each app.
</tt>
* Projects has PMPostits, and has no idea where all that data is stored... have to manually copy all reminders over to Relish when I get the time, and that's a LOT of reminders *
<DoubleT>  Don't MemoPlus and ToDoPlus use the standard pilot databases?
<rwhite>  I think so. Memoplus does.
<randell>  Projects may have alot of work to do... perhaps he can get it out of PMPostits in some form where it can be imported into Relish?
<DoubleT>  I think ToDoPlus does, too.
<Projects>  randell: I've tried, but I can't figure out where PMP puts the information
<DavidA>  Will 2.3 allow me to make NO reminders the default?
<randell>  Projects, I haven't looked at PMPostits in a long time... perhaps I should again since we like to be able to support imported from "commonly used" things.
<randell>  DavidA, I guess that wasn't listed anywhere in the preview info...
<randell>  At the moment, it depends on whether one other feature "not on the list" gets implemented.
<Projects>  randell: be nice :-) I have all the Voice members notification dates in there for the next few years to come... pops up when I have to send out reminders
<madodel0>  randell: and that is?
<DavidA>  Not a biggie, but it annoys my wife when I'm out of the office :-)
<randell>  Or, I guess I should say, the *way* you set the default will depend on whether that features makes it in or not.
<madodel0>  Any chance there will be a function to format and print an envelope from a phonebook entry? Right now I load Smack to print envelopes. I see the ability to print labels, but not a single envelope in the current version of Relish. Or am I missing that feature somehow?
<randell>  DavidA, why not just set the Snooze when you are out?
</tt>
* DavidA starts paging through the docs.... *
<randell>  We aren't planning any *direct* support for printing labels, envelopes, etc...
<rwhite>  Smack does have a nice integration with Relish - just drag and drop.
<randell>  But we will probably be adding some stuff to make it easier to get the info to other programs that do.
<randell>  And, as Rollin mentioned, Smack is one of those.
<thecaptai>  Sorry I'm late ... are you planning to put relish on my palmpilot?
<Mok>  "mmmm. Beefy."
<rwhite>  We're not porting Relish to the pilot, but we are planning support for sync to the pilot.
<randell>  We will also be adding some additional options for what happens when you drag a note to a printer object (which is currently supported)
<thecaptai>  but palms separate fname lname where relish uses whole name
</tt>
* Projects apologizes for cutting out early, but my wife needs me to give her a hand for a few hours *
<rwhite>  We have ways of dealing with such problems :)
<randell>  Long term, our target for enhanced printing in Relish is to "drive" the information thru "templates" you would construct/modify in Clearlook but that's still a ways off and not in 2.3.
<madodel0>  Cool, I just tried dragging a Relish entry to Smack! and it put it in the right place. Just have to delete the phone number
<rwhite>  Bill snuck that in there for WS 97!
<randell>  That's one of the things about drag-n-drop you never know what will work until you try it!
<madodel0>  Be nice if it left out the phone# and remarks
<randell>  That's on our list of requests may or may not make it into 2.3
<randell>  (The problem is in knowing *what* you are dragging to and thus what info you really want.)
<randell>  But vCard support is part of the answer to that...
<randell>  It's allow the data being dragged to describe all the parts of the "business card" info...
<randell>  and let the target application decide what to do with it... ie, what to use and what to discard.
<randell>  Relish 2.3 will support that on it's end in 2.3. I believe Bill is planning vCard support in Smack at some point.
<DoubleT>  I hope he's found work arounds for VA 4.0 problems.
<randell>  Don't know... but that's one reason we are still building with VA 3.x.
<madodel0>  Will IBM ever fix the VA 4.0 problems?
<randell>  We assume so... but VA 4.0 was a long time in coming in the first place.
<DavidA>  A beta might have helped....
<randell>  Besides the Pilot support, are there other things people might have been expecting to see on the Preview list but didn't?
<DavidA>  Did I miss longer phone# fields?
<randell>  I know of a couple of things that specifically aren't on the list... because we still have some technical issues to decide about.
<randell>  DavidA, well, that's one of them.
<DoubleT>  Are there additional fields, such as email, on the address?
<randell>  *Tentatively*, yes, longer phone# fields and, DoubleT, more fields in the phone book.
<randell>  There are some open issues about the most efficient way for us to do that... and how searching in Lookup views will work on the additional fields.
<DoubleT>  Are these fields user-defined are specified by the program?
<randell>  So, no *promises* on those yet... but highly likely (at least as far as the longer fields are concerned... a little less likely on the additional fields as far as 2.3)
<randell>  User-defined fields are *not* currently on the list for 2.3 they've been in the planning queue for 3.0...
<randell>  The biggest problem with user defined fields (for us) is how to "resolve" the differences when viewing multiple poeple's phone books together.
<randell>  And, "together" viewing is going to happen even more than it has in the past as well allow Relish connections via TCP/IP.
<DoubleT>  I see what you mean.
<madodel0>  just flag the non-local entries with a different color - like red. So it will be apparent they are not necessarily in sync
<thecaptai>  is it not easier to combine separate fileds later than try to separate an complex field into its parts after the fact?
<randell>  madodel0, different issue... if you have fields A and B and I have C and D... how do I display a view of our two phone books together?
<randell>  I *could* have A, B, C, and D columns... but that could get out of hand rapidly.
<madodel0>  Then leave off the extra non-local fields
<randell>  That is, indeed, one option.
<DavidA>  Will RWeb still be static - or is there a plan to make it dynamic or updatable?
<randell>  thecaptai, depends on what you are trying to do... sometimes it's easier and sometimes harder... and it also depends on how much work you want the computer to do for you.
<randell>  DavidA, the mention of RelishWeb it the preview information is still the "static" version that we now ship as an add-on.
<DavidA>  OK
<randell>  DavidA, but... we did develop most of a dynamic version in the past... but we we're happy with the result...
<dervish>  This is fascinating, sounds very impressive and having played with the Relish demo I'm practically sold -funds permitting! But I have to go! I have work tomorrow and it's 1:55am here so thanks Randell! I'll look forward to the log! Bye everyone!
<randell>  we need to rearchitect the way the dynamic sessions are managed... and will probably do that sometime in the future (not for 2.3)
<randell>  Thanks, dervish, if you have questions you can always send them to relish@sundialsystems.com
<Zoltan>  I also have to go, good night everyone.
<randell>  (Opps, didn't get that one out in time.)
<DoubleT>  Is that a move toward browser-based data entry?
<randell>  DoubleT, we refer to it as our "browser-based client"... but, again, please don't confuse that with 2.3.
<DoubleT>  I won't :). Just curious.
<randell>  FYI, the Relish architecture is well suited for such things since it uses a message-based architecture... and the client is already seperated from the "engine"
<randell>  One other thing *not* mentioned in the preview that some people might want to know about...
<DoubleT>  Is there any chance some of the Features will be separate buttons on the note input window?
<randell>  is support for note "groups" (ie categories) across workstations and/or shared by multiple users.
<rwhite>  DoubleT, probably not, but which features would you move?
<DoubleT>  I tend to use memo or group the most.
<randell>  Such groups are not currently in the 2.3 feature set but we are working thru the technical issues of supporting at least "common" groups in 2.3.
<rwhite>  When a memo is already attached, you can click on the memo attached text and it will open the memo.
<randell>  DoubleT, as Rollin said, probably not for 2.3. But we do have a solution for that in the longer term (beyond 2.3).
<DoubleT>  True. A listbox for groups would be nice.
<randell>  DoubleT, we hear you.
<DavidA>  Any rough timeframe for 2.3?
<randell>  Since we never seem to get those things right, I'd rather not say.
<DoubleT>  The easier it is to enter something in the "heat of the battle" the more likely I will do it :).
<DavidA>  Randell: you're not alone :-)
<randell>  We have our targets, and there will be a PreRelease program before we ship...
<DoubleT>  Can I sign up?
<randell>  But, to be frank, while *most* of what you see on the Preview list is implemented and running, there are still a couple of *big* holes.
<randell>  DoubleT, drop a note to relish@sundialsystems.com and Rollin will add you to the list possible testers (for when the time comes and the list is not short).
<DoubleT>  How does the areacode lookup feature work?
<randell>  (And in the version of it I'm running myself which I built there are some definite "uglies" I would *not* inflict on even our most loyal testers)
<randell>  DoubleT, a couple of different ways...
<randell>  First, when you are dialing a call, there is a new button in the dialer that will do the area code lookup/search for you.
<randell>  Similarly, there is a choice on the popup menu in the phone book to do the search.
<DoubleT>  How do you get updates?
<randell>  And, when the area code list is displayed, you can just do a type-do-search to key in the area code of interest as well.
<randell>  Updates will be provided on our web site... at the moment we are not planning an "automatic" update capability but that may change.
<randell>  Given how often the area code info changes, we are nominally planning a once-a-month update to the area code info file.
<randell>  BTW, one of the interesting things about our area code information is that it contains "cross references"...
<madodel0>  which are?
<randell>  Thus you can see that, as it shows in the illustration, 626 used to be part of 818.
<randell>  That's makes is *far* easier to get used to understanding a new area code when one appears.
<randell>  I should also add that our info has the dates for *future* area code changes as well so you can "prepare" for them in advance.
<DavidA>  Will RNet 2.3 permit TCP/IP and Named Pipe connections at the same time, or is it one or the other?
<randell>  Any given client will connect to the server using only one form of connection as a time.
<DavidA>  But a server can accept different types at once?
<randell>  Any given server, however, will support connections via TCP/IP and Named Pipes at the same time...
<randell>  (assuming you don't "turn off" one or the other which will probabaly be an option)
<DavidA>  Given D&D, will I be able to drag a vcard from (say) PMMail onto Relish, and automatically create an entry?
<randell>  Yes.
<DavidA>  cool
<randell>  The assumption, however, is that both programs agree that vCard is an acceptable drag-drop format.
<randell>  In Relish, you can the option of having it *look* for the vCard even if it isn't identified as such.
<randell>  Another way to use the vCard support will be to set Relish to be the helper application for vCard data seen by Netscape.
<DoubleT>  If the client if on your laptop can you make changes at home that are "synced" with the networked data at the office?
<randell>  That way, Relish will get the MIME attachment, let you view it, and then (optionally) add it to the Relish database.
<randell>  DoubleT, that type of automatic syncing has been built into Relish Net from the start! Works like a champ!
<DavidA>  That's what I'm doing - I set the username the same on laptop and main machine.
<randell>  And, of course, it will be even more useful when you can "connect" via a TCP/IP dialup... or any internet connection while you are on the road!
<DoubleT>  Is that only for the multi-user version?
<randell>  DoubleT, yes... but in 2.3 there will only be "one" version...
<randell>  If that wasn't clear, one of the things we are doing in 2.3 is eliminating the distinction between Relish and Relish Net.
<randell>  Relish 2.3 will include both the single user capability and the network functionality in one box.
<randell>  The Relish Net workstation client works that way today... and the only reason there was a single user product in the past...
<randell>  was to cut down *slightly* on the memory footprint but that's hardly an issue any more (especially given our small footprint in the first place)
<randell>  How we doing on time... I know there were one or two non-Relish things we wanted to touch on briefly tonight...
<Sector>  No time limit, use as much time as you want
<randell>  Well, I *do* want to make sure we get to the trivia question before people need to leave (but it's not time for that quite yet).
<randell>  Any more questions then about Relish and/or Relish 2.3 in particular?
<DoubleT>  What's the upgrade from 2.23 to 2.3?
<randell>  Ok then, one other "housekeeping" issue....
<randell>  DoubleT, that hasn't been established but it will be more than reasonable... we never charge too much (some say not enough) for our upgrades...
<madodel0>  Will the pricing be the same as Relish net?
<randell>  All prices related to Relish and Relish Net and Relish Web will be adjusted with the unification... exact details still to be announced at a later time.
<randell>  Changing gears a bit then...
<randell>  Back in August, I believe it was, the topic of our VOICE chat was Kiwi, our junk mail elimination product.
<randell>  Most of you should now know that we announced the real name of the product, Junk Spy, at Warpstock 99...
<randell>  And that we've had a public PreRelease testing process in place for some time since then...
<randell>  So, let me turn it over briefly to Rollin to bring you all up to date on where we stand with Junk Spy.
<rwhite>  As Randell, said, we've been in PreRelease testing with Junk Spy.
<rwhite>  Testing has gone well! There were the expected problems, especially with the widely varying TCP/IP setups and we've integrated all of that feedback into updated PreReleases.
<rwhite>  We're getting very close to release and are very excited about our new product.
<rwhite>  Any questions about Junk Spy?
<KoolAde>  Rollin I have a question on JunkSpy and JStreet which is now PolarBar Mailer and have you guys tried it with the latest updates as I seem to be having a couple problems with the two.
<randell>  We now know even *more* ways that TCP/IP settings can be messed up!
<rwhite>  I didn't realize the Jstreet had been updated. I will have to seek it out and see if there are problems. What problem are you having?
<KoolAde>  plus I have an email that JunkSpy let tru
<KoolAde>  it sometimes just times out on the get mail and never connects to the server
<rwhite>  Any junk mail that slips through should be sent to junk@sundialsystems.com. Similarly, if something is falsely flagged as junk, please send it to nojunk@sundialsystems.com
<rwhite>  Email junkspy@sundialsystems.com and I'll have you go through a log process so we can figure out what's happening.
<KoolAde>  and then there was a email that was fowarded that I had to disable junkspy and just let PolarBar download without being there
<rwhite>  I'd like to pursue both of these issues via email. Please drop me a note.
<KoolAde>  will do rwhite
<rwhite>  If anyone else is having unresolved troubles, please drop me a note.
<KoolAde>  it had downloaded 95% and just hung there
<madodel0>  How has the reaction been to the pre-release so far?
<rwhite>  That is probably one of several problems we've fixed.
<randell>  While we are seeing a few issues like these, we are very close to a release point.
<rwhite>  Madodel, good! People are frustrated with Junk mail and happy to have a tool to deal with it.
<randell>  Reaction to the product has be *great* and has exceeded even our expectations!
<randell>  Compared to many products (of any type) on the market, our current PR5 release is better than many (if not most) "1.0" releases.
<randell>  So, and I guess Rollin won't shoot me for this since we were planning to announce it tomorrow anyway...
<KoolAde>  rwhite when I email I will fill you in on what has been happening with JStreet and the new programmers that have updated it and all the changes and the new name that it is now
<randell>  Our planned ship date for Junk Spy 1.0 is Jan 10th!
<randell>  Basically, that means we are pretty well frozen codewise and mainly are tieing up loose issues and polishing the documentation.
<WarpHoss>  That is great news.
<randell>  Well, it's getting close to the time we usually wrap things up... so anything else before we get to tonight's triva question?
<rwhite>  Any other comments or questions about Junk Spy?
<rwhite>  What is the prize for today's trivia question?
<randell>  Why it's a copy of Junk Spy, of course!
<madodel0>  Is that the question? :-P
<madodel0>  Junk Spy, do I win?
<rwhite>  And is this Jeopardy style? Or traditional tivia?
<randell>  Sorry, no.. but the question relates to Relish 2.3...
<randell>  It's a traditonal trivia question... and we will be looking for the first right answer... limit one answer per person please!
<Swanee>  Red! No BLUE!! (am I right?)
</tt>
* Swanee can't play. :-( *
<randell>  Since Area Code lookup is one of the interesting new features in 2.3, our trivia question has to do with Area Codes.
<Sector>  Swanne you can play, just can't win
<Swanee>  Sector: Story of my life. I just can't win!
<randell>  (Sorry, this will be a bit hard for our European visitors but a good guess might win.)
<Sector>  Swanee, that's cause your always too late to win...
<randell>  We are going to be looking for a *year*, and I think the question is hard enough that I'm going to give it to the first answer that's within 5 years of being correct.
<randell>  Only *posted* answers will be accepted... no private message.
<randell>  Ok, are we about ready?
<Swanee>  yup
<Sector>  Ahhh shucks, that requirment is a shame...
<randell>  In what year (plus or minus 5) was the original Area Code plan for the use adopted (not when was it first used by customers)?
<Swanee>  1968 < if that's right you will have to wait for the next person to say it. I can't play...
<KoolAde>  1961
<thecaptai>  1923
<Mok>  Thought it was 1967.
<DoubleT>  1953
<madodel0>  1960
<DavidA>  1958
</tt>
* Swanee had it ready too soon. I would have changed that *
<randell>  I'll give it to DoubleT...
<DoubleT>  yes!!!!!!
<Swanee>  Congrats DoubleT!!
<KoolAde>  yep 1950 is the real year
<randell>  The plan was proposed in 1947 and adopted in 1948. First customer use was in 1954. Wide use didn't happen until the '60s.
<DoubleT>  Thanks, Swanee!
<randell>  (Or at least that's what I recall from my sources but I'm the judge and the decision is final.)
<rwhite>  email rollin@sundialsystems.com your name, address, etc.
<DoubleT>  Will do!
<randell>  Well, that's about it for us for tonight!
<Swanee>  Thanks Sundial!
<randell>  Thanks for having us and we'll be back on the first Monday of February!
<Swanee>  Glad to see you. :-)
<Sector>  We are always happy to have you
<rwhite>  Thanks all! See you next time!
<DoubleT>  Thanks for answering all my questions. Glad I could provide one answer :).
<madodel0>  Any idea what the topic will be in feb 2000?
<randell>  Not yet...
<rwhite>  How about Y2K?
<rwhite>  :)
<randell>  Y3K? Can't start too early!
<rwhite>  Thanks again. See you all soon.
<randell>  Night all.