SpeakUp with Sundial Systems from 10/02/2000 (Topic: Help Forums)

<randell Hi all!
<DCasey Damn .. I was just getting ready to ask where our guests were :-)
<DCasey Hello, randell
<Sector Maybe the other one will come rolling in
<mandie g'evening :)
<randell Rollin should be along shortly...
<Sector Hi mandie­­­
<RumpleS Hey my nick list is getting rather full now!
<RumpleS Hey my nick list is getting rather full now!
<Projects hiya mandiekins
<Sector Hey there's an echo in here
<Sector Hey there's an echo in here
<MADodel Projects: you could just buy eCS upgrade, which would basically be the first CP with Lotus SS included. Then buy the upgrade protection in a year or so if you wanted to upgrade again. but it looks like all future fixpacks after 15 will be either in SWC or eCS Upgrade Protection.
<mandie lag :(
<Sector Hello rollin
<Sector Hi WyldFire
<rollin Hello!
<Sector Hmm, pings and leaves
<WyldFire hi
<rollin I'll take advantage of our pre-start time. Anyone using F/X Tunel over DSL/Cable?
<warspite Good morning all.
<WyldFire What fun, two new OSes to play with this week =)
<randell Dan, Rollin, and I are it for the Sundial side tonight... so we can get started whenever you're ready.
<rollin Sounds good to me
<DCasey :-)
*  Projects thanks Sundial for the long awaited lists
<randell Projects, that's our main topic for tonight.
<DCasey OK. Lets get started, then :-)
<DCasey Whoops .. where'd Dan go?
<DCasey Tonight, VOICE is pleased to welcome Sundial Systems to this Speakup session
<DCasey At this point, I'll have to admit that I'm not aware of the topic for this evening's session, so I'll defer to Sundial to get things started
<randell Thanks!
<DCasey Welcome to randell and jdkulp
<randell We don't have a "major" topic for tonight...
<randell The primary focus will be our new Product Forums...
<randell But we'll have plenty of time for questions about any of our products...
<randell And, with Dan here tonight, it's time to get all those Mesa questions out there...
<randell So, on to the Product Forums...
<warspite I would like to say "thanks" for starting them.
<DCasey I'm assuming we can use these ne "Forums" to hound you about Palm integration with Relish??
<randell Basically, for a very long time, people have been asking us for a way to share
<rollin No, that's the one thing you can't do with them :)
<randell their experiences, tips, solutions, etc, that involve Relish, Mesa, DBExpert, etc...
<randell We thought long about the best way to do this...
<DCasey LOL
<Projects DCasey: you have to saturate their personal mailboxes for stuff like that :-)
<randell Some people advocated using one or more newsgroups...
<randell Some people advocated using one or more mailing lists...
<randell So we combined those together in a package!
<randell Starting last week, we opened a series of product forums... one for each of our products.
<randell You can access the forums as newsgroups OR you can subscribe to them and
<randell receive all the messages as email!
<randell The details are on our website (www.sundialsystems.com).
<randell I'll come back and talk a little about how useful they've been already...
<randell But, Rollin, why don't you comment a little about how we make this all work.
<rollin It's pretty slick. We use Hethmon brothers mail server and Changi for the news server.
<Sector wb mandie
<mandie thx :)
<Sector Lag any better¨
<rollin When the news server gets a message it sends it to a special account which sends it to the mail list. The same is true in the opposite direction.
<mandie 22 secs better :)
<MADodel rollin: Is that on a Warp 4 machine or Warp Server?
<rollin Neither source knows or cares that the message is not from a traditional news/email client.
<rollin It's running on our web server which is a Warp 4 machine.
<MADodel Thanks
<rollin There's not much benefit to the web server itself of running on Warp Server.
<DCasey rollin you must not be using Hethmons Mail Server on WSeB :-)
<MADodel rollin: Yes I know, but VOICE has WSeB running and has encountered problems wit hInetMail
<MADodel Sorry to take you off topic, but when you mentioned the mail server a light clicked on. :-)
<rollin True, I tend to be very conservative on my servers. We're running an older version of Inetmail, W4, and other "older" software.
<Projects sometimes "older" is better...
<MADodel Well don't try it on WSeB :-)
<randell MADodel, was the WSeB box you tried it on an SMP box?
<rollin I do use it on one of my test servers without problems, but again it's an older version, so that might have something to do with it.
<MADodel randell: no.
<mandie Projects: I couldn't agree more!
<MADodel randell: Abel could tell you more since he is the SysAdmin and the one who has done the install
<Projects mandie: I was talking about software, but won't disagree with what you thought I was talking about :-)
<DCasey randell No SMP ... AMD K62-500
<mandie :P
<MADodel Unfrtunately he's not here right now
<randell We've noticed some rather strange thing on WSeB SMP but since, per DCasey, you're not running SMP that must not be the issue
*  DCasey is the one who built the server ... I know exactly what's in it :-)
<randell I want to emphasize that our new Product Forums are not a replacement for our traditional tech support...
<randell In fact, most detailed problems and usage issue should still be channeled thru our various
<randell tech support email addresses (relish@sundialsystems.com, mesa2@..., dbexpert@..., rover@... junkspy@... clearlook@...)
<randell But the product forums are a great way to find out what other people are doing with the products...
<randell and to share idea, tips, and get answers to "how to" kinds of questions...
<randell We know some of our most experienced users are already reading (and contributing to)
<randell the forums and sometimes they do know more about doing certain things than we do!
<randell We will, of course, monitor the forums... and use them to send out technical notices, etc.
<randell But one other great thing for YOU all to use the forums for...
<dcasey I should know better than to respond to Tim Martin when I'm doing something important :-)
<randell Is to let us know what you want to see in future versions of our products.
<randell That's already been happening since last week.
<rollin Indeed - DBExpert got a good dose of user feedback last week :)
<randell We've had a long discussion about adding a "ditto" key type of thing to DBExpert.
<warspite Woohoo!
<MADodel ditto?
<randell And our European customers have been helping us figure out their need to display "week of the year" in Relish.
<randell And just today, an exchange on Relish forum helped us find (and kill) a bug we didn't know about...
<randell that has been in the product for 10 years (since April, 1990)!
<randell Talk about "obscure bug of the month/year/decade"!
<randell But I'll pause now and open it up... I think MADodel might have had a question about "ditto"?
<MADodel ditto?
<MADodel :-)
<warspite I use to use it as.....
<randell Yes, "ditto"... basically the ability to "clone" the value in a field/record from some other record...
<warspite Ctrl+F8 on DBaseIV
<randell particularly useful when you are entering a series of records...
<randell The discussion covered, among other things, which record to copy from and other the differences between doing it...
<randell one field at a time and trying to do the whole record. You can visit the newsgroup for details...
<randell since I posted a summary earlier today and we still need more feedback to make sure that...
<randell if and when we implement this, we do it the way people would find it most useful.
<randell While we are at it... did you know that the ISO standard for such things defines the first week of the year...
<randell to be the one with the first Thursday in it (which is equivalent to the week containing Jan 4th)?
<randell I didn't.
<randell What we don't know (yet) is if there is any US standard/convention for this and if it follows the ISO rule.
<randell There might be a difference because US weeks start on Sunday while ISO (and thus most European) weeks start on Monday.
<mandie then they need to change that! :)
<randell Other questions? Particularly any Mesa ones while Dan is here?
<_Digi_ Thanks timka. I am in linux and I need an audio file but my audio board isn't set up yet.
<mandie hmm
<_Digi_ Wrong window.....blame it on x-chat I take no responsibility for my actions :)
<rollin We're also working on Junk Spy 2.0 - so if you've got feature requests let me know.
<MADodel What are in the plans so far for Junk Spy 2.0?
<rollin Good question :) Lot's of polish and UI improvements.
<rollin We've add an exception wizard so that if you have a message that shouldn't be Junk, Junk Spy will analyize it and help you build the best exception.
<rollin There are several others like that which I'm not sure in what form they will be, so I'll hold off on their specifics.
<warspite I do have a question re: DBExpert and long Directory Names
<MADodel rollin: thanks for the update
<randell warpsite, yes... a specific question?
<warspite Yes...if I have any long filenames..say "scholl matters" in my directory tree...
<warspite DBExpert doesn't work for me. Is it something I've done?
<DSOMber1 Hello all.
<randell warpsite, it's not the long directory name... it's the space in the directory name...
<warspite Gotcha...if I concertina it up, things will work?
<randell The problem is that when DBExpert accesese table using SQL statements...
<randell Internally (you don't see it) the full path to the filename is used in the statement...
<randell When the ODBC drivers see that, the don't parse the statement correctly...
<randell because they think the file name ended at the space...
<randell Unfortunately, we can't correct those drivers though we may come up with a workaround...
<randell at some point in the furture... but it's not a high priority.
<warspite Fair enough...
<randell The best thing to do for now is to make sure the full path to any DBF file...
<randell contains no special characters.
<randell That would have been a good topic for the DBExpert Product Forum!
<warspite OK, and thanks
<randell More questions?
<randell We certainly have a lively crowd tonight! Everyone must be burned out from watching the Olympics too much!
<StevenL It was on late at night here. :-)
<StevenL Did I missing anything on Relish?
<rollin You missed it all :) No, nothing much.
<dcasey I want to know when wqe can expect Palm sync support with Relish ... and when we can look for a REAL update to Clearlook
<StevenL Oh well, there's always the logs.
<rollin The Palm Sync is partially dependant on features that are slated for 2.3 of Relish. We're looking at ways to pull them apart, but right now they are tied together.
<randell When we do the Clearlook update, it will be major... but I've stopped projecting dates for it.
<randell We have lots of new Clearlook features implemented, but getting it rounded out into a "product release" has turned into a long, long effort.
<dcasey I REALLY like using Relish ... the pop-up reminders are un-paralleled
<randell The Relish update is planned to be the next major update out the door but this could change.
<dcasey But Clearlook is sorely in need of a "major update"
*  Projects wonders about the relish popup thing... more than one popup coming? :-)
<randell dcasey, thanks for your praise of Relish and I do understand your concern about Clearlook.
<randell Projects, I really don't understand this "more than one popup" thing.... it's probably better to discuss it in the Product Forum...
<dcasey I don't like StarOffice .. a real pig ... I use Relish extensively ... and WordPro .. and my Palm III is just sitting in its bag
<Projects randell: you (or was it rollin?) understood it last time :-)
<randell but I realize don't understand how people would really find that useful.
<dcasey I'd like a way to be efficient and productive ....
<dcasey But I refuse to go to Windows ... so I keep waiting :-)
<randell Projects, I understand *what* you want but not *why* you want it and I'm not sure how useful it would really be to most people.
<randell Having more than one reminder poped up on the screen just seems like it would be too confusing to me.
<Projects randell: hrm... I think it would be really useful to be able to have a bunch of popups on the desktop, and get rid of the ones that are handled as they're handled...
*  Projects used PMPostnotes before using Relish... multiple popups were great.
<randell But, wouldn't you get lost in all those windows?
<randell We do listen to customer needs, however, so I'm not ruling out multiple popups...
<StevenL Perhaps, this could work if there were a settable number of open popups.
<Projects nope.. they cascaded themselves nicely in pmpostnotes... at one time I had around 60 on the screen at once
<randell But there are some architectural issues in adding the to Relish in a clean way... so it's something we would do unless there really is a need.
<Zoltan Got to go... Good (whatever you having).
<randell 60 on the screen at once??? My you are most organized than I am .
<StevenL Yep, and which one is waiting for the ctrl-u?
<mandie or further behind on getting things done :)
<Projects heh... I was keeping track of customer reminders at the time... kept the notes up until the order was placed.
<randell That's the kind of thing we always envisioned that the Defered status and Overdue List would be used for.
<StevenL I just use defer for this...
<StevenL However, revise would be better if the done flag worked better 2.3?
<randell Projects, and StevenL, please feel free to start a thread in the Product Forum on this...
*  Projects likes to have the popup reminder showing, so that procrastination can't be blamed
<randell that was we can capture a wide audience of input on the "multiple popups" need/issue.
<warspite Gotta go...big day ahead for me....catch you on the Forums
<StevenL I find a 10 minute defer gets annoying enough that I just do it.
<warspite Thanks for everything.
<randell StevenL, the Done flag will work differently in 2.3.
<Projects StevenL: I've tuned my ears to not hear it :-)
<StevenL I'm waiting
<randell warpsite, thanks!
<randell StevenL, we're working
<StevenL :-)
<warspite Thanks to you too...see you.
<StevenL Then there always my Note templates wishlist item.
<randell StevenL, it's on my wishlist too. It's not implmented yet and may or may not make the next version.
<StevenL I know. I realize how much work it is.
<StevenL I get by with Alt-Insert for now.
<randell Foruntately, it's not as much work as it seems like it might be... the Relish architecture accomodates that one pretty well.
<StevenL True, but defining the setting pages and all that stuff... I just adds up.
<StevenL I -> It.
<randell Still no Mesa questions for Dan... he's getting off easy tonight!
<jdkulp :)
<StevenL He fixed the last bug I reported...
<randell StevenL, we have a better way to do it than to use settings pages... but I'm not going to detail it here.
<StevenL I've be light on spreadsheets lately.
<jdkulp I must be doing my job and satisfying everyones needs. :)
<randell Yep, Dan must be right! Everybody's satisfied!
<StevenL The only place Mesa is a bit limitied is in things like backsolver and so on.
*  Projects had a mesa question, but forgot :0-)
<StevenL I do wish cell labels worked differently, but I've already made my views on this known.
<randell How dare Projects forget anything... he should have put it in Relish!
<jdkulp I knew that one was coming. :(
<Projects heh... probably did, but there's no MULTIPLE POPUPS! :-))
<StevenL In mesa?
<randell Projects, got me on that one :-))
<Projects hehehe
<Projects any plans on a sticky note addon to relish?
<StevenL How so?
<randell Projects, no not really.
<Projects :(
<StevenL There is one thing that might be handy to have in Relish. A trash bun.
<randell Projects, did you have something specfic in mind? Sounds a bit like multiple popups to me.
<randell A trash bun?
<Projects randell: no, just sticky notes. I got used to having them with pmpostnotes, but now I'm using relish, I don't need the whole pmpostnotes for just the notes... I'll just find something else. I know there's sticky note things out there.
<StevenL Yes, every now and then I OK a note in error...
<Projects wtf? Too many hops on an email?
<Projects first time I've ever seen that "undeliverable" message
<StevenL If it's not set to stay around, I can not correct my error...
<randell Projects, what if you could have a WPS object (like a bun but different) that represented a particular note? Would that do the trick?
<StevenL If these notes when to a Trash bun, they could be retrieved and corrected...
<MADodel StevenL: I have had the same problem on an occasion also
<StevenL I've deleted in error at times too.
<Projects randell: and said object could be modified itself?
<StevenL This would also allow me to turn off Ctrl-U because I could always undo an error.
<randell Projects, yes, that would be the idea.
<MADodel StevenL: Maybe have the trash bun auto delete after a set number of days
<Projects randell: sounds like a sticky note to me :)
<randell I'll have to think about the "trash" idea a bit more... it's probably something we could do. The main problem I can think...
<StevenL Mark, the delete could by settable, but for what I'm interested in a fix duration of say a day would be more than sufficient.
<randell of at the moment, is that I'm not sure how they would impact repeating notes when you OK a repetition popup.
<StevenL I expected that. I'm not asking for undo per se. Just the ability to get to deleted note back...
<randell (Internally, Relish does have a concept of "deleted but not gone yet" so we might be able to leverage that.)
<Projects funny, my mind has that concept too :)
<StevenL I guess you would have to instatiate the repeated note as a non-repeating note with the reminder date that popped up.
<randell BTW, you can undo a delete from the Relish window... but you can't from the popups and that's the issue here.
<StevenL That's part of the problem...
<StevenL The popups don't work like the rest of relish in many ways.
<randell We actually have the capability of doing that instatiation now (for other reasons).
<StevenL I've seen that happen by accident. :-)
<randell There are specific reasons the popups work the way they do... mostly for good reason at the time they were designed...
<StevenL And don't ask me how I did it.
<StevenL I'm sure there's plenty of history involved...
<randell but there is always room for refinement and we are doing some of that (specifically to the popups) in the next version.
<StevenL I'm just a simple user who wants to be able to drop times on to the entry fields.
<randell Not just history... people tend to want to do different things from the popup than from the main window.
<randell The reason you can't drop times on entry fields has to do with an enhancement to entries fields...
<StevenL Since you mention the main window, is there a way to do multiple selects?
<randell that someone at IBM (who I won't name and who was a Relish user) promised me, oh, back in about 1993...
<randell I'm still waiting for it and I suppose I'm never going to get it! But I can be stubborn about waiting for such things!
<randell Multiple selects can't be done in the main window for historical reasons having to do with the drag/drop implementation...
<StevenL Well, at this point in time, I suggest you hope that Kim really wants to use Relish and the enhancments this requires. :-)
<randell We are trying to get around that limitation for this next version but I won't promise it.
<StevenL OK, let me know when the beta's ready.
<randell You will be one of the first to know.
<StevenL Glutton for punishment, are you?
<randell I could say the same about you ...
<Sector I Blackbird
<Blackbird HI sector
<StevenL I'm used to things that break. As long as they don't lose data, it usually don't care.
<StevenL Hi BB.
<Blackbird HI steven and All
<DSOMber1 Yeah...speaking of Kim...are you guys working with Serenity in any sort of co-development?
<StevenL I do have a question for Dan.
<randell StevenL, data integrity is always very important to us.
<randell DSOMOber1, I would prefer not to discuss it here, but, basically, Kim and crew aren't interested in anything we are doing.
<DSOMber1 randell - Ok....thanks.
<jdkulp OK
<randell StevenL, what was that question for Dan?
<StevenL Dan, did you ever do anything to allow the globals.m2 file to be found in the directory...
<StevenL containing the .m2 file when the .m2 is started by clicking on it?
<jdkulp Nope, but there may be a workaround to that problem.
<StevenL Yes?
<jdkulp I don't remember if you tried this or not, but if you add the mesa2 directory to the LIBPATH.....
<DSOMber1 Hello randell.
<jdkulp and then remove the working directory from the "Mesa 2" program object, it might work. Then again....
<StevenL How exactly is your class code starting Mesa?
<jdkulp It's not. It's allowing the WPS to do the default thing. The only action we change is printing and some icon stuff.
<jdkulp Thus, if the Mesa 2 program object is registered to handled *.m2 and all "Mesa Workbook" objects (it is by default)...
<jdkulp then when you click on a workbook, the WPS should start the Mesa 2 program object.
<randell So it's strictly based on the file type associations.
<StevenL OK...
<StevenL I'll fiddle with it...
<jdkulp yes, except for printing.
<StevenL I can't remember if I tried this before. I do recall discussing it.
<Blackbird Sorry for coming late....will see the transcript posted I guess on Voice...need to go put my foot up and on ice...sprained the heck out of it ...see you all later somewhere...
<randell Yes, I meant the *program startup* is strictly based on the file type/extension mechanism built into the WPS.
<randell Well, it's about that time for us to be wrapping this up until next time... so one last call for questions
<randell Thanks for having us. We'll be back in December. And, until then, be sure to stop by our new Project Forums to ask questions or help answer other people's questions!
<rollin Thanks all!
<StevenL Nite. Thanks for coming.
<randell As always, the details are at www.sundialsystems.com.
<mandie Thanks as always :)
<StevenL Dan, I'll let you know the results of my testing.
<Sector Thanks for stopping in and sharing this with us
<randell StevenL, be sure you let me know as well.
<DSOMber1 Thanks.
<jdkulp OK
<jdkulp Post to the forums. :)
<StevenL OK.
<randell Yes, post to the forums!
<StevenL That reminds me...
<StevenL Did the mesa forum naming get fixed?
<randell StevenL, if you are referring to the long names, no, that's an issue for Rollin and he's left.
<StevenL No, there was a CGI problem...
<StevenL It's probably fixed...
<randell StevenL, if you are referring to that brief signup problem just after we opened, yes, it's fixed.
<StevenL That's the one....
<StevenL I probably forgot to try it again...
<StevenL Going there now.
<randell Thanks again everyone! Goodnight!