SpeakUp DFSee Session 2 - September 25, 2004
<DFSee|JvW> = Jan van Wijk
<eCSNL> = Roderick Klein
SpeakUp started at 06:01:55 EDT
<DFSee|JvW> Hi all
SpeakUp ended at 07:57:09 EDT
<Warspite> Hi JvW
<Ed-Sydney> Hello Mr Speaker !
<Mikeoc> Hi Jan
<eCSNL> Well lets get this session on the road.
<eCSNL> People in Australia just had dinner...
<eCSNL> I goofed up a bit with the timezone stuff. I was sleepy when sending out the final annouchment.
<Warspite> I'm still waiting
<Mikeoc> I put mine off till after the show
<eCSNL> All people from Australia.
<eCSNL> Every speak we organize with VOICE will also have a second session targetted
<Warspite> Thank you
<eCSNL> at Australia and Asia
<Mikeoc> that's great
<eCSNL> As president of VOICE I want to attract more people. So spread the news about the speakups.
<Hawklord> It's a good time for Sweden too.
<eCSNL> In the coming months I will trying to put OS/2 user groups also more in touch with each other.
<eCSNL> Anyway this speakup is now open.
<Ed-Sydney> Roderick - can you quickly cover rules and format for the speakup before Jan starts please ? ie. keep question to end etc. ??
<eCSNL> Jan could you keep a log a log ?
<DFSee|JvW> OK, just a minute and I'll start it ...
<HarryWho> I nearly missed this one. But thanks to an email from os2.org.au I'm here
<DFSee|JvW> OK, logging is on now.
<Mikeoc> Me too in Tweed Heads
<Warspite> Thank you
<Warspite> Can't do it on Chatzilla
<DFSee|JvW> Yes you can, it is in the preferences :-)
* eCSNL falls from the stage and lifts the curtain
* eCSNL turns on the mike and kicks it over to Dfsee|JvW
<DFSee|JvW> OK, thanks Roderick.
<eCSNL> Jan just introce your self and tell something about DFsee
<DFSee|JvW> Well, I almost missed this one too, had a very rough week since my father was hospitzlized and had serious surgery
<DFSee|JvW> All is OK now, and he is bacjk home
<Mikeoc> Sorry to hear of that Jan, hope he recovers well
<DFSee|JvW> OK, a little bit about me and DFSee then
<DFSee|JvW> I am a software-engineer with a background in DOS, OS/2, NT and UNIX/Linux system programming, system integration, networking, communications and WEB technology.
<DFSee|JvW> Started as a programmer with a multi-national over 20 years ago developing telephone-exchange firmware.
<DFSee|JvW> Been working as a (programming :-) consultant for about 15 years with a large softwarehouse.
<DFSee|JvW> First encounter with OS/2 (then called DOS 10 :-) in 1988 when I joined the development team for the Query-Manager, part of what later would be DB2 for OS2.
<DFSee|JvW> Developed a REXX-subset compiler/interpreter for that because the 'official' REXX subsystem was not ready yet.
<DFSee|JvW> Did a lot of OS2 system-integration and some programming for a project where over 8000 desptop systems needed to migrate from a DOS to an OS2 based environment.
<DFSee|JvW> The last few years in that project I actually developed a small program called DHPFS, to analyse and examine low-level HPFS disk-structures :-)
<DFSee|JvW> I quit that consulting job in 2001 to take a sabbatical leave; Still trying to decide when to end that ...
<DFSee|JvW> Actually I started my own company 'FSYS Software' after a few months to allow me to do freelance work and develop and sell my own products.
<DFSee|JvW> Any questions sofar ? Otherwise i'll continue on DFSee itself ...
<Mikeoc> Much appreciated too!
<Warspite> Thanks for that
<DFSee|JvW> As said, DFSee started out as a small utility to display some HPFS structures.
<DFSee|JvW> I added some partitioning logic over time because we needed batch-wise partitioning capability from a DOS boot-disk.
<HarryWho> Just looking at your WEB sie.. Impressive!
<DFSee|JvW> Thanks Harry, hope to improve on that too, by adding more tutorials and HOWTO info ...
<DFSee|JvW> Since all of that partitioning stuff was developed in my own time anyway, I later used those fragments to build a more generic disk analysis and partitiong tool, DFSee.
<DFSee|JvW> DFSee is designed to be as generic as possible, without much operating-system specific interface being used.
<DFSee|JvW> As a result, almost all functionality is available in all the versions, so you can do NTFS related maintenance from DOS, OS2 and now Linux if you wish
<DFSee|JvW> The most important features are: partitioning, file-recovery, partition-recovery, imaging, cloning and interactive analysis
<DFSee|JvW> The single most-used feature in DFSee is the ability to find lost partitions and recreate them without loss of data (DFSDISK procedure)
<DFSee|JvW> Development of DFSee continues, new features are being added and bugs are being fixed. There is about one minor release every month ...
<DFSee|JvW> All minor releases (like all 6.xx versions) are FREE downloadable upgrades.
<DFSee|JvW> I plan to have about one MAJOR release a year, hopefully with some significant new functionality :-) Upgrading to a new MAJOR release does require you to pay an upgrade fee.
<DFSee|JvW> The latest big additions to DFSee have been the MOVE/COPY commands and menu-items, and the release (yesterday) of the native Linux executable.
<DFSee|JvW> Questions ?
<DFSee|JvW> OK, I'll answer those two first ...
<DFSee|JvW> A real GUI version for OS2-eCS will not be there on the short term, but is certainly something I consider.
<DFSee|JvW> Actually that would not be OS2 only, but if possible a Windows-NT/XP and Linux version too, probably using a library like WxWidgets
<DFSee|JvW> There is some development (not by me yet) in that area using OpenWatcom and WxWidgets, so who knows ...
<Warspite> May I ask a question please, Jan?
<DFSee|JvW> It would probably be a somewhat restricted (in functionality) program, with the most important features present in an (evn more ) user friendly way.
<DFSee|JvW> Sure, just adk ...
<Mikeoc> Would that still have the context-specific highlighting
<Warspite> I remember before that there was still some development you had to do in regards to compressing JFS volumes. How is that going?
<DFSee|JvW> OK, I'll answer the JFS question first, than get back to Mike
<DFSee|JvW> I have spent the last 6 months in adding the MOVE/COPY stuff and making the straight Linux port of the program.
<DFSee|JvW> My next big 'project' will be adding more support for JFS and EXT2 filesystems (and perhaps ReiserFS).
<DFSee|JvW> I am not sure yet if all the features available for HPFS/NTFS will be there for JFS too, but the minimum would be UNDELETE and filerecovery.
<DFSee|JvW> Resizing JFS might be more difficult since there is a relation with LVM there as well.
<DFSee|JvW> I don't expect anything usefull out of that effort before early next year.
<Warspite> Thank you.
<DFSee|JvW> Does that answer the JFS question ?
<Ed-Sydney> Do i read into this that LVM does stop re-sizing then ?
<Ed-Sydney> (in the present version)
<DFSee|JvW> About the (WxWidgets) GUI version: I do not know any details about that, but would expect that features like contect higlight would be possible yes.
<Mikeoc> OK, thanks Jan, I imagined it would be harder than ANSI
<DFSee|JvW> The WxWidgets library is an objet-oriented (C++) thing, so takes some re-learning for me. It is supposed to be quite powerfull though.
<DFSee|JvW> About LVM/JFS and resize:
<DFSee|JvW> You can not really resize JFS using DFSee at the moment since there is no logic in DFSee to update the superblocks or any other JFS specific thing.
<DFSee|JvW> When forced to, it would update the partition-tables and (some) LVM info only.
<Mikeoc> Presumably for non-spanned volumes that would be an easier task
<DFSee|JvW> For JFS volumes (type 0x35) there is additional information that would need to be updated which is related to bad-block relocation and multi-partition volume administration.
<Ed-Sydney> As, with larger and larger drives, most OS2-eCS users are going to be using JFS drives, it would be valuable to have this feature I think.
<DFSee|JvW> And, yes, for non-spanned volumes it is probably easier, allthough I did not really stufy how the JFS filesystem is distributed over multiple partitions yet.
<DFSee|JvW> ED, do you mean resizing JFS, or JFS functionality in general ?
<Ed-Sydney> There's talk of JFS being available for boot drives as well, so then HPFS will probably disappear
<Mikeoc> I would have though that as the expansion capability is already there, that few would be resizing smaller, and that general corrective procedures would be the requirement
<Ed-Sydney> or at least not be so common
<DFSee|JvW> OK, well I have found that resizing is about the most difficult and error-prone operation on filesystems, so I will be very carefull with that, but Yes it would be nice.
<Mikeoc> I'm booting several drives directly from JGFS partitions now!
<Mikeoc> read JFS
<DFSee|JvW> For JFS you can already EXPAND the size by adding a partition to an existing volume.
<DFSee|JvW> Withe the big disks these days, it is also easier to have some spre room to copy things to while resizing, so there are alternatives.
<Ed-Sydney> Yes thats an LVM feature - but I'm think more of the need to change sizes (up and down) as system usage changes.
<DFSee|JvW> I have found thet the NTFS resizing offered with DFSee right now, causes too much problems, it needs some additional work for maximum reliability.
<Warspite> Absolutely...as in Partition Magic
<DFSee|JvW> Yes, I agree that unrestricted resizing capability is a nice thing to have.
<Warspite> But, I can see that there are problems with that, correct?
<Hawklord> I used NTFS resizing, but it isn't easy to do.
<Mikeoc> All the time that M$ keeps moving the goalposts!
<DFSee|JvW> With JFS resizing, I am not sure yet. Need to investigate the filesystem further. (and the LVM connections)
<Warspite> Thanks for the research, anyway.
<Warspite> I'm sure you'll get it in time.
<DFSee|JvW> Well, i'll concentrate on JFS and EXT2/3 first anyway. For NTFS there are alternative programs anyway ...
<Hawklord> I fear using other programs will destroy all OS/2-specific information
<DFSee|JvW> OK more questions ? I have some stuff of future plans (although we touched on most of that already)
<DFSee|JvW> About destroying OS/2 specific stuff:
<DFSee|JvW> Ther are two things to consider here:
<DFSee|JvW> 1) Partitioning tools, these MIGHT destroy LVM information. However, most of the time they simply ignore it (so it could be outdated)
<DFSee|JvW> Some Linux partitions tools have nasty habbits of creating non-standard partition-tables which will confuse Windows and OS2 systems (and others)
<Warspite> Noticed that. What Linux partitions treat as logical drives....
<Hawklord> If you for instance use Partitionmagic to enlarge an NTFS partition?
<Warspite> LVM treats as Primaries..
<DFSee|JvW> We always had the 'backwards linking problem' for logicals that some Linux FDISK programs dis, and now the latsest Redhat (Fedore core-2) has started to overwrite LVM-info with non-standard EBR placement (might be a bug in Suse 9.1 too)
<DFSee|JvW> Partition-Magic ignore the LVM-info, so if you expand a partition, the size-info in the LVM-info will be incorrect and LVM will complain (tables corrupted)
<DFSee|JvW> If you MOVE something, the will be NO LVM-info at all with the moved partition, so LVM will not complain, but not mount/use the partition either.
<DFSee|JvW> Both situations can be repaired using DFSee (and with some more effort, with LVM.EXE too)
<Mikeoc> I've noticed that W2KProSP4 identifies all the 0x35 volumes as FAT
<Hawklord> DFSee has helped me out of such situations sometimes!
<DFSee|JvW> The problems caused by Fedora-core-2 (and perhaps Suse 9.1) can be repaired using DFSee by re-creating all logical partition at exactkly the same (cylinder) location.
<DFSee|JvW> Mike: I guess the M$ systems are not very open to what others in the industry are doing, and assume they set the standards :-)
<Mikeoc> You can say that again, Jan! I only the other day had to use DFSOS2 seriously to rewrite the HPFS spare-block on an unreadable drive
<DFSee|JvW> If they really see it as FAT, there might be the risk of an unwanted CHKDSK to 'repair' it, like we had with the BMGR ...
<Mikeoc> that's exactly what was happening -
<Mikeoc> I was lucky enough to be able to abort all the retries until I could remove them in the disk management Tools
<Mikeoc> drive-letters that is
<DFSee|JvW> Behavior like that, also makes a Windows-GUI version of DFSee unsuitable for many recovery jobs, Windows does a lot of damage before you can even start a recovery program!
<Mikeoc> One doesn't ever want to let W2K etc boot unattended on a multi-boot system
<DFSee|JvW> No, I guess not, allthough if it malfunctions you are probably too late anyway ...
<Mikeoc> They give you a couple of seconds to abort the chkdsks
<Ed-Sydney> A couple of new questions on DFSEEs capabilities:
<Ed-Sydney> Question: Is there any limitation on the size of disk DFSEE can handle ?
<Ed-Sydney> Question: Can DFSEE handle SCSI hardware RAID arrays ?
<DFSee|JvW> OK, on Ed's questions:
<DFSee|JvW> Size limitations, yes of course there are limits :-)
<eCSNL> I think so since the RAID controller makes the RAID configuration transparant to the OS ? (Or this this wrong Jan ?)
<DFSee|JvW> The INTERNAL limits in DFSee is in a maximum number-of-sectors kept in a 32-bit number (4 billion ??)
<DFSee|JvW> This restrict the maximum disk-size to 512 GiB at the moment I think ...
<Mikeoc> Well 2TB anyway, it's OS/2's facilities that restrict it to 512GB
<DFSee|JvW> No, sorry. Made a mistake there, that limit is 2 Tera-byte (2048 GiB).
<DFSee|JvW> The 512 GiB limit is platform dependant, and on most systems is caused by the 16-bit cylinder numbers being used.
<DFSee|JvW> On some platforms the limit may be less (like DOS without extended-int13 capability).
<DFSee|JvW> I allways try to find way to stretch the limits of course :-)
<DFSee|JvW> About SCSI RAID:
<DFSee|JvW> If it really is a HARDWARE RAID solution, where all RAID related logic is contained either in hardware or firmware (perhaps with some minimal support from an OS driver) DFSee will work just fine with it.
<Ed-Sydney> DFSEE accesses the drives directly I thought - hence the question re-multi disk RAID arrays. I can't see how DFSEE would be able to handle hardware raid. So you're saying your interface is via the OS ?
<DFSee|JvW> In that case the RAID mechanism is transparent to DFSee, it will only see the 'logical disks' defined in the RAID arrays as 'physical disks' in DFSee, not the real disk-drives that are in the RAID setup.
<DFSee|JvW> Yes, on every platform DFSee uses the lowest possible level to interface with the disks, and that often is a driver/subsystem in the OS.
<Ed-Sydney> OK, that makes sense as all partitioning happens on the Pseudo drive supplied to the OS by the raid controller - thanks.
<DFSee|JvW> With DOS, it simply are the facilities offered by the BIOS, for OS/2 it are the .ADD driveres combined the the OS2DASD/OS2LVM stuff.
<DFSee|JvW> Mike: Yes, I do work with IOCTL's
<DFSee|JvW> However, IOCTL are 'generic interfaces' to a disk-driver. They do not talk to the hardware directly. They talk to a driver ...
<Mikeoc> You use entry points in os2dasd/lvm
<DFSee|JvW> I do NOT operate IO-ports or such directly (hardware). If I would, I'd be reinventing many wheels :-)
<Mikeoc> too true!
<eCSNL> Well in two years time we will have DFsee OS :-)
<Mikeoc> What do you know?
<DFSee|JvW> Using the OS interfaces have a big advantage and some dis-advantages:
<DFSee|JvW> 1) advantage: I can use 'new' hardware transparently when supported by the OS (like FireWire)
<DFSee|JvW> 2) Disadvantage: If the OS fails to connect to the hardware, so does DFSee :-(
<DFSee|JvW> About DFSee-OS:
<Mikeoc> Re: advantage: Let's hope!
<DFSee|JvW> There will be NO 'DFSee-OS', DFSee logic is aimed at recovery, it does not do much in terms of pernamce and updating filesystems efficiently ...
<eCSNL> That was just a joke...
<DFSee|JvW> Oops, that was 'performance' ...
<eCSNL> Don't take it serious :-)
<eCSNL> Noticed the :-) <-
<Mikeoc> I meant the advent of Firewire on our OS!
<DFSee|JvW> Yes, saw that, just want to make sure we do not start any rumours here :-)
<Mikeoc> OK Jan
<DFSee|JvW> Yes, I am waiting for FireWire support too, hot-pluggable backup disks (400 GiB or so) :-)
<DFSee|JvW> More questions, anything I missed ?
<Warspite> Just a quick one, Jan...
<Warspite> Could DFSee assist me in backing up an entire disk, either to CD's or a removeable Hard Drive (Caddy)?
<DFSee|JvW> About backup:
<DFSee|JvW> Yes, it could assist in some ways, although perhaps not exactly in the way you would like to. It can:
<DFSee|JvW> 1) Create an exact duplicate of the whole disk on another one (same size or bigger)
<DFSee|JvW> This is a bit inflexible, since you backup/restore a whole disk oin one big chunk.
<DFSee|JvW> 2) Create exact duplicates of SINGLE partition on the same or another disk (CLONE partition)
<DFSee|JvW> I use that a lot to keep backups for my operating systems partitions (1GiB for eCS, 7 GiB for XP)
<DFSee|JvW> 3) Create image-files from eithe a whole disk, or from single partitions (IMAGE).
<Warspite> Is that the same as Norton Ghost?
<DFSee|JvW> The imagefiles can be restricted in size (like 700 MiB) to allow later storage on CDROM (or DVD). DFSee itself does NOT support writing of there though. You need CDRECORD or RSJ for that (and intermediate disk storage)
<DFSee|JvW> Imaging is a lot like what Ghost does, however, I think Ghost also creates new partitions (partition-table) on restore and it can resize a partition-contents while restoring ...
<DFSee|JvW> With DFSee that would be separate actions (allthough I do plan to add an automatic partition-create option to the restore)
<DFSee|JvW> That would allow a restore to a freespace area of sufficient size.
<DFSee|JvW> Yes, I guess so. I am not familiar with that. My latest version is the 4.x I think ...
<DFSee|JvW> You can fine this stuff documented in the DFSCMDS.TXT with CLONE, SIM, WRIM, MOVE and so on.
<Mikeoc> I've never had other than personal , 2+3 for Os/2 then 6.01 for [except HPFS!]
<DFSee|JvW> It is in the 'Actions' menu when using the menu to access the functions.
<Warspite> Something to look forward to. Thanks.
<Mikeoc> Jan hasn't mentioned about the DFSee group on Yahoo so far!
<Mikeoc> there's a great deal of information there as most encounterable problems have turned up on it!
<Warspite> Your bootable CD Disk. Does it boot OS/2 or DOS?
<Ed-Sydney> Whoops just lost Jan I think
*Mikeoc* Seems like it, Ed
<Warspite> A pity.
<Ed-Sydney> Someone didn't change the default Chatzilla name - someone in Queensland ....
<Ed-Sydney> Well that frightened him off ...
<Warspite> Are you still receiving me, Ed?
*Mikeoc* I can see both of you
<shezza> Sorry about that I am a IRC newbie!!
<Ed-Sydney> Welcome sheeza - unfortunately our speaker (Jan) has dropped connection.
*Mikeoc* Join the others of us likewise
<eCSNL> At the last meeting he also had trouble with his ADSL conenction...
* eCSNL and here ladies and gentlemen is a word from our sponsor
<Ed-Sydney> no probs a lot of us had problems with IRC getting in today
<eCSNL> Yes ladies and gentlemen buy Microchees software today, never have you felt so insecure.
<Warspite> I tried at 1000 WST, but couldn't get in, but am fine now.
<Mikeoc> Well I'm not frightened to participate in this, now that I've experienced it for the first time
<eCSNL> Thats right Microchees invented file sharing, with all secuirty holes it never that easy share files with the world.
<eCSNL> Microchees, where will your data go today
<shezza> Sorry to be a dummy but what are we talking about?
<Warspite> Is our log still going....?
<Warspite> I STILL couldn't get it to go here.....
<Warspite> but that's probably me :-)
<Ed-Sydney> It's not bad, but a suggestion. Perhaps if someone wants to present a product (rather than just discuss it), we could have a webpage somewhere where we could see slides etc. - would that be possible ??
<Mikeoc> Shezza, we lost our guest speaker, JvW
<Ed-Sydney> Subject for IRC was DFSEE product
<shezza> Okay so what next??
<Warspite> Ed, the Baywarp OS/2UG may be talking to the author of Mr. Message. Will keep you informed.
<Ed-Sydney> Roderick, I guess since Jan hasn't been able to re-connect, we're about done. Please pass my thanks on to Jan, I've learnt some more this evening.
<Ed-Sydney> OK to Warspite
<eCSNL> I have Jan on the phone
<eCSNL> His internet connection is having trouble...
<Ed-Sydney> Please Thank Jan for his time
<eCSNL> Hello ?
<Warspite> Glad your back, Jan
<DFSee|JvW> Sorry, had some hicckup somehwre I guess ...
* eCSNL kicks the lights back on and falls off the stage.
<DFSee|JvW> About the bootable CD:
<DFSee|JvW> It is based on FReeDOS at the moemnt, since it is, well, free :-)
<DFSee|JvW> And then I also mean I am able to distribute it without worrying about licensing and such
<Warspite> OK, Thanks.
<Ed-Sydney> Is it possible for the purchaser to add network support to it ?
<DFSee|JvW> It als has a nice menu-system based on config.sys processing that I use to offer a few pre-cooked operations at startup.
<DFSee|JvW> Yes, that should be possible. I have not investigated that in detail yet.
<DFSee|JvW> If you check discussion on the http://www.freedos.org site, you are likely to find usefull info
<Ed-Sydney> I'm thinking cloning from the CD booted system to a server for image backup
<DFSee|JvW> Yes, I can understand that.
<Ed-Sydney> Ok thanks for the URL
<DFSee|JvW> Adding it to the CD will be more difficult since you would need to update the ISO image and
<DFSee|JvW> the boot-image that is on there (doable but not real easy)
<DFSee|JvW> When someone gets it to work (with freely available drivers) I'dd be happy to add it to the standard CD :-)
<DFSee|JvW> This is one of the reasons I want to add the option of booting Linux from that CD.
<Ed-Sydney> So it should work with the normal dos support files for the relevant NIC
<DFSee|JvW> Not sure how yet, either a seperate CD, or better, have a selction menu at startup to choose.
<DFSee|JvW> When I do that, I might even offer to boot eVS (demo) with DFSee as well :-)
<Ed-Sydney> Hmm,, ecs1.2 demo bootable CD .....
<DFSee|JvW> eCS that is of course!
<Warspite> Just a thought.....
<Ed-Sydney> that includes networking. DFSEE executable is DOS or OS2 right ?
<Warspite> but maybe you could work in with Hayo of "BootAble"?
<DFSee|JvW> Yes perhaps. But the problem is, I can not DISTRIBUTE a fully operational eCS operating system. Just a demo would be OK I think, or a script/procedure to create your own.
<Warspite> Fair enough.
<DFSee|JvW> Ed: what exactly was your question on networking with DOS/OS2 ?
<DFSee|JvW> About executables:
<DFSee|JvW> There are FOUR to choose from now: DOS, OS2 (or ecS), Windows-NT/W2k/XP and a native LINUX one
<Ed-Sydney> OK networking -ok. If the bootable CD ran eCS, it'd be better if the DFSEE executable running on it would be OS/2 not DOS - purely for performance reasons.
<DFSee|JvW> They are very close in functionality.
<Ed-Sydney> ok thanks
<DFSee|JvW> Of course, the bootable CD actually has ALL versions on board, to be copied/installed on the HD. It has a seperate BOOTIMAGE that holds another copy of the DOS version.
<DFSee|JvW> I would add BOOTIMAGES for LINUX and perhaps OS2 to those.
<DFSee|JvW> The bootable CD also has a ZIP-file with a diskette-image so you can create a bootable diskette with DFSee on it too, it is the same as http://www.dfsee.com/dfsee/dfsee6xx_dsk.zip
<DFSee|JvW> As most of you probably know, you can either buy the (8-cm mini) CDROM through the Mensys shop, or download the ISO and burn your own (adding your own registration-key)
<Warspite> Thanks for that.
<Ed-Sydney> Ok, so there's several usable options. Great.
<DFSee|JvW> OK, a few more line on future development then:
<DFSee|JvW> When the dust from the Linux release setles, I plan to work on some filesystems again, with JFS and EXT2/3 and perhaps ReiserFS as main topics
<DFSee|JvW> Features to be implemented for that are some FIX commands for superblocks and so on, and file-recovery
<DFSee|JvW> Significant updates in that area would probably be released for version 7.xx sometime next year.
<DFSee|JvW> For the long term, there might a real GUI (graphical interface) for OS2, Win and Linux and perhaps just with the major features that are now in DFSee.
<DFSee|JvW> A product like that would need to be easier to use than the current DFSee, needing less inside knowledge or guidance from an expert.
<DFSee|JvW> Any more questions ?
<Ed-Sydney> Not from me - thanks for your time Jan.
<DFSee|JvW> OK, you're welcome!
<DFSee|JvW> Anyone else ?
<Warspite> Same...and again, thanks, Jan.
* eCSNL looks on stage and thinks the speakup is coming to an end
<eCSNL> Well seing nobody type I gues we can close this first speakup session
<DFSee|JvW> OK everybody, thanks for listening ...
<eCSNL> that was targetted as Asia and Australia.
<Ed-Sydney> thanks for organising Roderick
<Warspite> Thank you for having us, Roderick
<eCSNL> Basicly its my intension that every speakup has two speakups.
<HarryWho> Thanks everyone involved.
<eCSNL> So no matter where you are on this planet it suits the time zone.
<eCSNL> Spread the word and next time I will post more reminders to Japanese
<eCSNL> and Australian news sources as well.
<eCSNL> Thanks for dropping by Jan.
<eCSNL> And see you at the next speakup...
<eCSNL> Follow Voice newscast for more information...
<DFSee|JvW> OK, you're welcome!
<eCSNL> Good night to everybody on the other side of the planet.
<eCSNL> I'm of having to do some work here
SpeakUp ended at 07:57:09 EDT