General VOICE Meeting form 04/16/2001

<Walter>	Am I late?
<Sector>	Nope
<madodel0>	projects: It's my duty to protect them from themselves
<Projects>	Walter: right on time
<Rat-Salad>	hi Walter
<Hoss>	Right on target Walter.
<Projects>	hehehe
<Walter>	Hi everyone!
<Sector>	Hello Hoss
<Hoss>	I'd like to thank everyone for dropping by tonight.
<XRange>	hi Hoss , Walter
<Walter>	Hi Hoss
<Hoss>	for those that don't know me I am Abel McClendon, the secretary for VOICE.
<Sector>	And System Administrator for the VOICE server
<Walter>	Who's XRange?
<Sector>	We haven't figured that out yet... ;>
<Projects>	hehehe
<Hoss>	Projects here is th money man, th treasurer for VOICE.
<Hoss>	madodel, I think is here??
<Hoss>	he's the editor amongst other things...
<Projects>	no, but madodel0 is
<XRange>	hi lmaxson
<Hoss>	;-) projects.
<Sector>	Hello lmaxson
<lmaxson>	Hi, all.
<Walter>	Hi lmaxson
<Hoss>	mandie is lurking she is our liason officer... the brains behind all this braun. ;)
<XRange>	hi trouvere
<Sector>	Hello trouvere
<Walter>	I used to be WalterOS2; now that's my email name.
<cass>	Hi Imaxson, trouvere...
<trouvere>	hi, all
<mandie>	g'evening :)
<Hoss>	oh the brains! hiya mandie ;-)
<XRange>	hi mandie
<mandie>	got a couple of things to take care of and brb
<mandie>	hiya Hoss and XRange :)
<Walter>	hi mandie!
<mandie>	Walter!! Welcome :)
<Sector>	It's mandieðððððð
*	Hoss says hello to evreyone...
<Hoss>	ok.. there's a few things on the agenda... and a few things not.. I hope madodel brought a copy...
<MADodel>	who meù
*	Hoss says yes.
<Sector>	Hello WarpedOS2
<MADodel>	I thought we were going to discuss the server?
<XRange>	hi WarpedOS2
<Hoss>	basically yes we are...
<Hoss>	LEt's get some of th other business out of the way... Projects : do we have a treasurer's report?
<MADodel>	I'd also like to discuss forming SIGS if we have time. Specifically a networking SIG to help people with networking problems. Also we need to discuss kickstarting Warp Doctor
<mandie>	whew! my granddaughter is wearing me out :)
<Projects>	4255.08 CDN
<Hoss>	membership numbers?
<Projects>	patience...
<Projects>	242
<Hoss>	slow but steady growth. that's good.
<mandie>	$2723.5998207770594 USD
<Projects>	Mark: agreed on those SIGs, but a bit late for the networking one :-)
<Projects>	mandie: try and be a bit more accurate next time... :-)
<mandie>	sorry..sometimes I just can't make the grade :)
<Projects>	hehehe
<Hoss>	While we are on the subject of money... mandie you want to tye alittle bit about the WARPSTOCK offer... and related topics...
<Hoss>	tye=type.
<mandie>	I'd love to but....
<Projects>	there's always a but...
<mandie>	Maybe Mark has paid more attention than I have of late...it's been very busy with company around here
<mandie>	Walter: I will get back to your email eventually also :)
<Walter>	OK--I thought that email addr was dead.
<mandie>	Hoss: are you referring to "our" deal with Warpstock?
<Hoss>	yes, mandie. the "negotiations" and result.
<mandie>	ahhhhhh :)
<mandie>	ok, I can do that
<Projects>	but?
<mandie>	Warpstock Inc., has requested that VOICE handle their registration transactions
<mandie>	no but about it! :)
<Projects>	:)
*	Hoss notes the spelling on the word "but".
<mandie>	they are going to provide funds for the secure certificate for both VOICE and Warpstock, Inc.
<mandie>	Hoss has been working very intensly on our server and it now provides secure transactions :)
<mandie>	thx Hoss!!
<WarpedOS2>	Hi all...
<WarpedOS2>	hi sector., Xrange
<mandie>	also......
<mandie>	Warpstock will be moving from the server at BMT and VOICE will not be providing them a new home :)
<WarpedOS2>	What will you use the secure transactions for...
<mandie>	we're in the process of working out all of the details but it will happen in the very near future
<mandie>	any questions??....answers.......???
<mandie>	comments....suggestions....
<Sector>	Ummm, VOICE will not beù
<mandie>	VOICE will be!
<Projects>	yeah, what he said
<Hoss>	WarpedOS2 :: The first transactions hosted/handled by VOICE1 be warpstock registrations.
<WarpedOS2>	Oh ok...what about memberships :-)
<Hoss>	replete withe credit card transactions.
<Hoss>	WarpedOS2 :: That will be added very soon afterwards.
<WarpedOS2>	Hoss...good, I will be waiting for that...
<mandie>	Sector: you're correct...
<cass>	Is there not an opportunity for more Voice memberships out of this work for Warpstock?
<mandie>	VOICE will not be hosting Warpstock..it will also be hosted by Internet WalkAbout
<Walter>	os2.guide@miningco.com is a bad email address. I'm still getting a subscription through there, but it's causing me nothing but trouble. My advice=delete it.
<mandie>	VOICE will provide server space
<WarpedOS2>	Hi Walter
<Hoss>	Walter :: we can handle that...
<mandie>	cass: I personally don't see it generating additional memberships...
<mandie>	but...
<mandie>	VOICE has always provided support for Warpstock and we've helped whenever possible
<cass>	just one of those...hm, more exposure thoughts.
<mandie>	they are in need and requested our assistance
<WarpedOS2>	Hoss...is the Voice server for transactions in a secure place...?
<mandie>	cass: there's a thought!...
<Hoss>	VOICE1 is in a professionally maintained ISP environment.
<WarpedOS2>	good...thanks...Hoss
<Hoss>	Security is on par with telecom data centers.
<mandie>	www.walkabout.org
<WarpedOS2>	HOss: ok...good to know!!
<Walter>	A professional ISP that's comfortable with OS/2! Now's there's a conundrum!
<MADodel>	Actually paying for the ISP service is one of things we have to address
<Hoss>	Walter :: there are ore of those in the world than you'd expect.
<Walter>	Now's = Now.
<Hoss>	ore=more.
<DSOM_eCS>	Greetings.
<XRange>	hi DSOM_eCS
<Hoss>	good topic madodel.
<mandie>	hi DSOM
<WarpedOS2>	hi Dsom
<Walter>	I guess they're just not here in Canada. :-)
<mandie>	Hoss: has Wilson thrown around any $'s at all?
<mandie>	I should say #'s
<Hoss>	we have only discussed "what we paid previously" and "what we can afford"
<Hoss>	along with those items we also talkeed about VOICE doing what is best for VOICE and do as much as we can for him.
<mandie>	is he providing backups or are we b/u our own?
<Hoss>	We are working on backups at his location...
<Hoss>	the biggest rpoblem right now is JFS.
<Hoss>	his backup solutn won't handle it.
<WarpedOS2>	What kinda traffice Voice server looking at for transactions and hd space....etc...?
<WarpedOS2>	Whatsup with JFS??
<Hoss>	VOICE1 doesn't have enough hpfs room to "completely backup" the entire machine.
<MADodel>	I believe the server version of BackAgain will handle JFS
<Sector>	So will the client version
<mandie>	do we have a license to BA?
<Sector>	But it's still limited to the HPFS 2gig filesize limit, though this is apparantly being addressed.
<Hoss>	right now VOICE1 is holding about 10gb of data.
<MADodel>	We can get a 60gig IDE drive for about $250 or so. That should provide a few generations
<Sector>	Hi tealia
<tealia>	hi
<XRange>	backup to jfs with OS/2 Wrap Server Backup/Restore
<Sector>	Huh, I just ordered two for $157 each...
<Rat-Salad>	a ide 60gb for $250 ... can do better than that
<mandie>	Sector: 60G each?
<MADodel>	Wow, $157, where?
<Sector>	Uh Western Digital
<MADodel>	I did say or so
<Sector>	$2 shippping each
<XRange>	rpm speed Sector
<Sector>	5200
<Hoss>	Along with this keep in mind... _ANY_ HW changes / upgrades are going to be done ny our Provider. ( another reason to come up with something we can afford to pay ).
<MADodel>	I think we should get at least one big IDE drive for some redundancy
<Hoss>	ny=by.
<Hoss>	I agree Madodel.
<Projects>	can't backup offsite?
<Hoss>	yes we can...
<MADodel>	What kind of IDE controller does VOICE1 have? Is it just ATA/33?
<Projects>	that way we wouldn't have to trouble walkabout with it
<Hoss>	The IDE controller is on the MotherBoard.
<MADodel>	Projects: but what about restoring? An onsite backup is really important. We should do both
<WarpedOS2>	hi tealia
<Projects>	restoring would just be a matter of swapping drives
<tealia>	hi
<Projects>	oh, the time issue...
<lmaxson>	We're putting up a server with IDE drives?
<mandie>	Hoss: what mb do we have?
<mandie>	it's probably got ata/66
<Projects>	lmaxson: no, a backup IDE drive
<MADodel>	Swapping a drive that is in another part of the country is not really a quick method
<MADodel>	Unless we get a teleporter
<Projects>	yeah, that's what I said :)
<Hoss>	S1598 TYAN Trinity ATX
<MADodel>	mandie: it's not a major deal, but the faster the better.
<mandie>	correct
<Hoss>	2 IDE Connectors PIO mode 3/4 UltraDMA 33/66 supported
<Hoss>	40pin IDE
<MADodel>	I thought ATA/66 required an 80pin cable?
<Hoss>	Doesn't say ATA/66
<Walter>	You can use a 40-pin cable if you step the drive down ATA/33 :-(
<Hoss>	That's right off the manual...
<mandie>	and I thought it was right off the top of your head!...what a disappointment! :)
<Hoss>	no way I can keep everything there... mandie ;-)
<Hoss>	it sort of slides off!!
<Rat-Salad>	so get a card... DaniS506 will handle it
<mandie>	LOL
<Walter>	The drive comes a utility to allow you to select ATA/33, ATA/66, or plain.
<MADodel>	At least with an IDE drive we can use anything we like to do the backups - zip, XCOPY, BA2000 or PSNS
<mandie>	need the special cable for ATA/66
<mandie>	true
<Hoss>	anyway for backup/redundancy UltraDMA33 is ore than enough...
<Hoss>	ore=more.
<Walter>	I would agree.
<MADodel>	Would 60Gig be enough?
<Hoss>	Yes 60 gb would do nicely.
<WarpedOS2>	Well, a UltraDMA33 Running a 7200RPM drive is lots of power and speed...
<WarpedOS2>	It is a web machine not a server!!
<Rat-Salad>	I just found a 80gig Maxtor for $218
<mandie>	brb
<Hoss>	I am concerned about the pounding that we put on our current "WorkDrive."
<MADodel>	Would we use JFS or HPFS? I've had no problem with JFS, but others have
<Walter>	Given that warp-cast news has only been on the server for a short time, I think you should get as big a one as possible.
<MADodel>	Do we also need additional SCSI drive?
<Hoss>	IMHO, HPFS for backups. JFS for serving.
<Hoss>	an additional 18gb SCI drive would definitely help things out.
<MADodel>	But on a reboot, a 60gig HPFS will take an eternity to CHKDSK if it gets dirty
<Hoss>	THat can be divided up...
<Walter>	SCSI is more expensive, but does give you better throughput with less processor load. You have to weigh the pros and cons.
<MADodel>	The server already has SCSI drives
<Hoss>	For that machine... SCSI for serving.
<XRange>	bbiab
<Hoss>	The latest JFS patch... has VOICE1 humming.. nicely.. even on simoultaneuos reads/writes.
<Hoss>	We ran into soe serious problems early on... particularly with mail.
<Hoss>	soe=some.
<Hoss>	We also had some EMX issues that caused wuite a bit of downtime.
<Hoss>	Those are cured.
<MADodel>	18gig SCSI 68pin drive is probably going to cost about $200 or so
<Hoss>	We still run into a situation every now and then when the PID cont tries to roll over....
<MADodel>	And 68 pins are getting tough to find
<Hoss>	cont=count.
<MADodel>	Will the existing SCSI cable able to take another drive?
<DSOM_eCS>	Check those cable lengths.
<Hoss>	Yes. the existing cabling will take several drives.
<MADodel>	Good.
<MADodel>	I think we should purchase a 60Gig IDE drive and a 18Gig SCSI drive.
<Sector>	18.2gig IBM 80pin (includes 80-68pin adaptor) $139
<MADodel>	And where is that?
<Sector>	Same place I got my Quantum Atlas 10K II's from. http://www.hypermicro.com/
<Walter>	And what are we going to use the SCSI drive for? I forget.
<Hoss>	Active serving.
<Sector>	IDE would be for backup purposes, SCSI for online storage of whatever
<Hoss>	Right now _everything_ is dpenedent on the IBM18gb SCIS we have..
<MADodel>	We have to spread some of the server load around.
<Walter>	Makes sense to me. :-)
<lmaxson>	How many 18GB SCSI drives will physically fit in the server without overheating?
<Hoss>	we can fit _two_ more drives without having to add a cage.
<mandie>	what about cooling?
<Hoss>	we can add the front fans from www2cool.com if necessary.
<MADodel>	Are there enough fans in the current box to add a couple new drives?
<MADodel>	We should add at least one set of bay fans for the 7200RPM SCSI drive
<Hoss>	I think it would be a good idea to add 2 bay fans and the server would remain cool.
<Hoss>	we have enough room for 2 drives IIRC.
<lmaxson>	In one of my IBM 315 servers I installed 5 4.3GB drives. Had I gone to a larger capacity drive I would have had to cut the number in half due to the cooling requirements.
<MADodel>	lmaxson: with good fans, heat should not be a problem
<lmaxson>	Mark, it's circulation, actually forcing air over the surfaces.
<Hoss>	we doo have room for one drive below the flopies and 3 up top... if we pack them in. I don't think that is wise.
<MADodel>	lmaxson: I'm aware. I have two cheetahs. With good fans, there is no problem
<lmaxson>	Mark, do you have them stacked on top of each other?
<Hoss>	We could always use the chimney effect.... and put a stack on it...
<Hoss>	;-)
<Sector>	I've got a couple of 10,000rpm drives here without any heat problems. (ok there are 6 case fans and a couple of GlobalWin I-Storm II's in front of the hardrives).
<MADodel>	lmaxson: no. I wouldn't put two 10,000RPM drives directly on top of one-another. There is space between them and a bay cooler on each
<lmaxson>	All I'm going by is IBM's recommendations for the larger capacity drives.
<Hoss>	The 2 IBM's we have are doing _really_ well. 1 18gb and one 9GB.
<MADodel>	It's not the capacity, so much as the spin. A 5400RPM drive doesn't need much cooling. A 10K RPM needs a lot of cooling
<lmaxson>	The point is that there is a difference between the available bays in the machine and the usable ones for HDs.
<Hoss>	IBM ULTRASTAR 18ES
<lmaxson>	At least they are IBM drives.
<MADodel>	That is true. But I trust Hoss to know where he can put a 7200RPM drive and a 5400RPM drive
<Hoss>	I am looking a a picture of the Mid-Tower case.
<Hoss>	We have room for _2_ more drives.
<lmaxson>	I willing to consider it a non-issue.
<MADodel>	The SCSI should go where a bay fan can cool it.
<MADodel>	The 5400 can be tucked in where it can fit
<Hoss>	Not a problem.
<Hoss>	We can move the current 18gb up and pu the IDE below the 9gb
<MADodel>	We don't want thermal problems for sure
<Hoss>	With that and 2 bay fans It'll be just fine.
<MADodel>	Is the Power Supply up to all that added watts?
<mandie>	we might want to get an opinion from Wilson also
<lmaxson>	bbiab. dinner time.
<Hoss>	yes, he can see__ the temp/
<mandie>	correct
<mandie>	and he knows what environment is like for the servers
<Hoss>	PC/POWER and COOLING 250W PS.
<MADodel>	Is voice1 in a cooled room?
<Hoss>	Yes.
<Hoss>	AS it was before. Air temp at RBDC was 75-80 degF.
<Hoss>	Wilson assured me his room was less.
<Hoss>	I think we beat that topic up pretty nicely....
<Walter>	I take it Wilson is an ISP rep?
<mandie>	ok, let's determine needs and $ and pass it by the members for approval
<Hoss>	Wilson is the ISP.
<mandie>	do we know how much space will be needed by Warpstock?
<Hoss>	warpstock is already on the server.
<MADodel>	I would think with 250Watt ps that this additon will pretty much max out voice1. Will this give us a year or so before we have to consider any new additions?
<mandie>	ah...mirror..forgot :)
<Hoss>	http://www.os2voice.org/warpstock
<Hoss>	they come in @ 1gb
<Hoss>	if you count the zipped backup....
<Hoss>	This will last us.
<MADodel>	That's good to hear
<DSOM_eCS>	The requested URL /warpstock was not found on this server.
<Hoss>	add the /
<DSOM_eCS>	Ok.
<Walter>	Actually, I'm surprised you can hang as much as you are on a ps that size.
<Hoss>	I know the guy that put that machine together... it's a piece of prize winning HW.
<Walter>	I'll take your word for it!
<Hoss>	As a matter of fact.. many of us knew him.
<MADodel>	:-(
<Sector>	Uh huh
<Hoss>	:(
<Hoss>	now. mandie.. I agree with you.
<Hoss>	2 bay fans, 1 60GB IDE HDD and 1 18GB SCSI HDD.
<Hoss>	ok, let's determine needs and $ and pass it by the members for approval
<Hoss>	anybody know the bay fan cost?
<Sector>	That would depend on the type
<Hoss>	Only the best ;-) !!
<mandie>	wonder if we can have the items purchased by Wilson..he may be able to buy discounted hdwe
<Hoss>	Could be...
<mandie>	worth checking on
<Hoss>	true enough...
<Sector>	GlobalWin I-Storm II's are nice but run around $30 or so. Plus they pull from the bottom so can't put two right together (not that you'de want to anyway.
<Hoss>	ok we an still say... we need to buy the 2 bay fans and the IDE and SCSI drives price not to exceed $X ????
<Hoss>	an=can.
<Projects>	not to exceed $1.50
<Projects>	that's about 2k in cdn :-)
<Sector>	Shouldn't be more then $400 including shipping
<Hoss>	It's a wise investment IMHO.
<MADodel>	I think we have to do something if we are going to continue to add services
<Sector>	Agreed, worthwhile
<MADodel>	We are making voice1 an invaluable asset to the community. We can't just let it wear out
<Hoss>	ok who has the wording for a vote of member's present? or do we want to put that on th survey page?
<trouvere>	call for a motion?
<Hoss>	That works trouvere : All those member's present who agree to purchase the aforementioned HW not to exceed $400 +5% say AYE.
<Hoss>	AYE
<Projects>	AYE
<trouvere>	aye
<Walter>	AYE
<MADodel>	AYE
<cass>	Aye
<XRange>	AYE
<Sector>	Affirmative
<Projects>	scratch Sectors
<Projects>	:)
<Sector>	Thanks, I had an itch
<MADodel>	Do we allow Affirmative here?
<Projects>	heh
<Projects>	make him say the right word!
<Hoss>	Ok it passes with * AYE votes.
<Hoss>	8
<Projects>	7
<Sector>	Projects, you withdrawing your voteù ;>
<Projects>	Sector: no, yours didn't count. Say the right word! :)
<Sector>	the right wordð
<trouvere>	(ask for opposed to be 'legal')
*	Projects smacks Sector
<Walter>	I have a question about my 'AYE'
<MADodel>	Now Peter, I'm trying to get my kids to stop hitting one-another. Do I have to send you to your room also?
<Hoss>	Those opposed to the purchase say NAY.
<Hoss>	Yes Walter?
<Projects>	I didn't hit him, I smacked him :)
<Walter>	My membership lapsed; so I paid via BMT on Saturday, but I haven't received the official notification from you guys yet. Am I a member or no?
<MADodel>	Projects: that sounds like something my kids would say
<Projects>	Walter: I'll d/l the transactions tomorrow, and go through them then
<Projects>	MADodel: and mine... where do you think I get my material? :-)
<MADodel>	Walter: you are a member.
<cass>	Oh no, let's not go there...I've paid (with proof) but ...Notification???
<Walter>	OK, Mark. Thanks.
<Hoss>	yep. I agree madodel.
<Projects>	cass: you got your BMT notification?
<Sector>	Good enough for me
<cass>	All mail from BMT is good
<Hoss>	ok. now. the next thing is... what can we agree upon to pay_ our provider?
<Projects>	if you can get any that is :p
<Hoss>	At our old colocoation site we had agreed to pay $25 a month. We never_ had to pay it.
<Projects>	we had to pay it once
<Hoss>	that was from August of 2000 until last month.
<Hoss>	Projects that's why u r the treasurer :)
<Projects>	oh, wait. We had to pay BMT once for warpdoctor... different thing altogether
<Hoss>	ahh yes different...
<Projects>	my mistake
<Hoss>	I think for now.. we should at least_ pay that much. with a modest "setup fee"....
<Hoss>	We are going to be asking the ISP to do a number of thing's for us....
<Hoss>	1 install that HW we just agreed to buy.
<Hoss>	2. a couple more DNS entries.
<Hoss>	3. Install some software.
<Hoss>	4. another IP address or two.
<DSOM_eCS>	Network monitoring?
<Hoss>	5. "onsite eyes" for server shutdown's and reboots to fully automate the process.
<Hoss>	DSOM--good phrasing.
<XRange>	Hoss: better may sure he loaded ide drivers after scsi are he have problem. :)
<Hoss>	VOICE1 is already setup that way.
<MADodel>	We using the DANIS driver on voice1?
<Hoss>	Yes.
<MADodel>	Good.
<Walter>	How come you can such a good deal with Wilson?!
<trouvere>	first 4 points should be covered by setup fee
<Walter>	can such = can get a such
<Walter>	a such = such a
<Hoss>	Wilson and I had discussed the possibilites last year during the time VOICE made the decision to purchase a server.
<Hoss>	Dan myself an wilson ecxchanged a few emails... aong those lines.
<Hoss>	Wilson is a VOICE member and had some thing;s to offer.
<Walter>	OK, thanks.
<cass>	Okay. The fee seems reasonable, for services we require...why not?
<Hoss>	He is/was in need of some various thing's VOICE could provide.. and he wanted to "become a more active" member.
<Hoss>	"Mutually Beneficial" Arrangement I think was what we discussed.
<XRange>	sound like good enough reason
<Hoss>	It pertained to the WaprDoctor project and the database project.
<Hoss>	cass : glad to hear you say that.
<MADodel>	We don't want to wear out our welcome. BMT gave us a free ride for a couple years, but toward the end I felt they looked on us as a burden.
<Projects>	no arguement there
<mandie>	agreed
<Walter>	Yeah..definitely better to leave on good terms.
<Hoss>	I think it's better to stay on good terms.
*	Projects can't get a response out of them at all, but everything I'm trying to complain about is mysteriously fixed...
<mandie>	neighbor is visiting...please post log...
<mandie>	bbl
<Hoss>	stay on good terms with _everyone_ in our community.
<Hoss>	anyhoo that said..
<MADodel>	BTW, does anyone have a log of the last meeting?
<Hoss>	anybody have a motion ?
<Sector>	But of course
<trouvere>	any comment about how much setup fee?
<Hoss>	well I think a gratuity matching a month's servce wuld be accpetable.. and not too pricey for the budget.
<cass>	Sounds good: I'd have expected more of a setup..
<MADodel>	I really think at minimum $50.
<Projects>	most of the setup work was already done by late-night Hoss :)
<Hoss>	if we had to shop on the open market I promise you we would pay $200+ a month. and a fee for every service rendered.
<WarpedOS2>	YIKES!!!
<MADodel>	For the setup that is
<Sector>	Which is not an option (the $200/month)
<MADodel>	We have a T1 access do we not?
<Hoss>	THat is correct Sector, that is _not_ an option today.
<MADodel>	My ISP charges $250/month for fractional T1
<Hoss>	YEs 10MBS FULL_DUPLEX to the router.
<Hoss>	More than we will need.
<trouvere>	50 seems reasonable
<Hoss>	$25 a month and a $50 setup fee....
<Walter>	I hope we don't wear out our welcome with Wilson like we did with BMT.
<Sector>	Well, we didn't pay anthing to BMT...
<Walter>	The amount Hoss suggested is OK by me.
<cass>	And me.
<Projects>	ditto
<Hoss>	I think we sould all understand that when we can afford more we should pay more.
<lmaxson>	Me too.
<Hoss>	we are growing.
<MADodel>	I motion that we agree to pay Walkabout a $50 setup fee and $25/month for ISP services
<Hoss>	motion on the floor. ^^^^
<lmaxson>	Second.
<Hoss>	Those in favor signify by saying AYE.
<Walter>	AYE
<cass>	aye
<Hoss>	AYE
<MADodel>	AYE
<lmaxson>	AYE.
<trouvere>	aye
<Projects>	AYE
*	Projects get's the bat ready for Sector
<Hoss>	that's 7 AYES motion carries.
<Hoss>	those opposed say NAY.
<mandie>	AYE
<Hoss>	that's 8.
*	Sector hides behind VoiceBot
<Sector>	Positive
<Hoss>	there's 8.5
<Projects>	*smack*
<Projects>	hehehe
<Hoss>	ok. that's a done deal.
<Walter>	Can I ask a question?
*	_XRange hides just got hit awhile ago
<MADodel>	Is there anything else we need to discuss in regard to the server?
<Projects>	you just did
<trouvere>	what is involved in hosting irc? many of the #webbnet addresses don't work for me.
<Sector>	They dontù
<Hoss>	Yes. I will be ready to register the certificate on VOICE1 this week.
<Hoss>	WarpCarge will be loaded this week as well.
<Projects>	Walter: your question?
<Hoss>	Warpcharge.
<Hoss>	Walter : ??
<Sector>	trouvere, what happens when you try and connect to WEBBnetù
<Walter>	At the beginning we said the membership was 200+ . We just accept a motion with 8 votes. What are VOICE's rules regarding a quorum? Or are there any?
<Projects>	trouvere: at the risk of swelling Sector's head, I've found irc.ca.webbnet.org to be pretty reliable
<Walter>	accept = accepted
<MADodel>	trouvere: Several of us run webbnet IRC servers
<Hoss>	valid votes are taken of members present at meetings.
<Sector>	Hi daveW
<daveW>	hello Sector
<Hoss>	PLease take th OT webbnet stuff to another channel.
<trouvere>	email me some new addresses, mark, when you have time. mine came from the webbnet website, and seem not valis any more.
<Hoss>	Walter : we do our best to stay within the rules outlined in our bylaws.
<trouvere>	valis=valid
<Hoss>	WE run as loose a ship as we can to keep everyone "ok" with stuff. If we make mistakes we do our best to correct them as fast as we can.
<trouvere>	sorry, i thought perhaps the server would handle that
<Walter>	OK, Hoss. I'm just trying to learn...not meaning to be critical. :-)
<Hoss>	Your questions are appreciated Walter. :)
<XRange>	g'night everyone
<Sector>	Goodnight XRange
<Projects>	we about done?
<Hoss>	We will have a short questionaire for member's up sometime next week I hope...
<Hoss>	Almost projects...
<Hoss>	We have several vacancies to fill. a short bio and the position you'd like to take can be sent to nominate@os2voice.org
<Hoss>	Secretary and President are open
*	Projects sizes up Walter for the presidency
<Hoss>	ok. madodel? projects? what did I miss on the agenda?
<Hoss>	mandie?
<Hoss>	Anyone have ?'s concerns or commentary?
<Hoss>	ideas?
<MADodel>	It's late so I will hold off on my topics til next meeting
<Hoss>	ok madodel.
<MADodel>	For the next agenda, I would like to discuss Warp Doctor
<MADodel>	And creating a regular Networking meeting SIG
<Hoss>	I agree.
<Walter>	I would like that, yes.
<Hoss>	we can continue to discuss... but the official stuff is over.
<lmaxson>	Mark, why do you need a networking SIG if SCOUG already offers one?
<MADodel>	They do?
<lmaxson>	Yep.
<Hoss>	Networking SIG on IRc?
<lmaxson>	Yes.
<Sector>	Covered by the Help desk
<MADodel>	We need to offer a regularly schduled IRC meeting where people can come to get help with networking problems.
<trouvere>	g'night all
<MADodel>	Does that mean that VOICE can't offer a help session?
<cass>	Thanks all, good night.
<lmaxson>	No, it doesn't mean that.
<MADodel>	Not everyone can make that meeting. The time is kind of late.
<lmaxson>	It means that VOICE can take advantage of an available OS/2 resource.
<MADodel>	I think we can offer an alternative. There is a big need for this. And I think it will encourage people to get on IRC
<MADodel>	We should advertise the SCOUG help desk as well
<Sector>	Nah, it's not late... It all depends on your frame of reference, VOICE meetings could be considerd kinda early for some
<lmaxson>	If you are bothered about the time, you can always use either a mailing list or the IBMFORUM on CompuServe.
*	Projects ^5's Sector
<Walter>	The interactivity (I think I coined a word) has some distinct advantages over the std mail/discussion list.
<MADodel>	lmaxson: I can use a mail list or a news group as well. IRC offers something different. realtime help
<lmaxson>	It's only real if someone is there.
<Sector>	Well, at least Projects didn't smack me this time
<Projects>	hehehe
<Walter>	You can keep refining your question until you get the information you need, for one thing.
<MADodel>	lmaxson: hence the the schedule part
<Projects>	and "try this, and tell me what it does" is much quicker in IRC sessions :)
<lmaxson>	Mark, I can give a more thought out response to an inquiry on a mailing list or an CServe forum than in a chat session.
<MADodel>	Sometimes getting the right information from someone with a problem is like pulling teeth. We went through this recently with helping someone on the eCS list, and it was pretty successful
<MADodel>	lmaxson: it's not the response, it's the trouble shooting. And you can still do so on those fora if you like.
<DSOM_eCS>	MADodel - Yes, several of us were there for that eCS chat.
<lmaxson>	Well, if you can get Steve Levine, our Mr. KIA, to participate, that takes care of the trouble shooting.
<MADodel>	That would be great if SteveL has time. The more the merrier. Maybe schedule it on a Saturday
<MADodel>	We just need to expand the use of the facility we have here
<lmaxson>	Fine by me.
<MADodel>	I think there is more then enough room for a couple of help sessions. And this would be centered on networking
<lmaxson>	It's just that I had duplicating volunteer effort.
<lmaxson>	had = hate
<lmaxson>	However, let's get on to WD.
<MADodel>	lmaxson: you can't expect everyone to show up at 10PM on Wednesday. It would be great if they could.
<lmaxson>	Mark, you have a point.
<lmaxson>	Maybe we need an east coast/west coast type of thingee.
<Hoss>	IRC has a hint of being realtime... especially when there are people in a channel...
<Hoss>	#scoug is _rarely_ populated.
<Hoss>	Resources are varied...
<Hoss>	he scoug chat has helped me a few times.. even if it is a 10pm.
<Hoss>	he=the.
<MADodel>	Be nice if we had something a kin to P2P so people could post relevant files for people to look at while they were being discussed.
<Hoss>	WD has the potnetial to take that to a new level.
<Hoss>	P2P can be done via a browser with properly written code.
<Hoss>	"integrated" into an irce sessoin.
<WarpedOS2>	night folks...
<Projects>	DTOC is another option
<lmaxson>	Seems to me that DCC within a chat session will work.
<MADodel>	Projects: Do you want people you don't know in your machine?
<Projects>	Mark: I've done it before with a botched linux install
<MADodel>	Actually that or maybe just another channel just for posting files to browse might work
<lmaxson>	I'm down to fifteen minutes left.
<MADodel>	Anything to say on WD Lynn?
<lmaxson>	Only that I'm a volunteer.
<lmaxson>	And a database expert.
<Hoss>	I have seen access time reduced to 1 second in a database with 107,000 + records.
<Hoss>	text_ records.
<lmaxson>	You haven't been on a mainframe doing 14,000 transactions per second then.
<Hoss>	I don't think WD will ever see that ;-)
<lmaxson>	With databases running into hundreds of millions.
<Hoss>	we may want to prepare fot a peek.. of sorts... but not 14,000 transactions per second.
<lmaxson>	With any kind of luck we will grow WD into a mainframe for reliability and performance.
<lmaxson>	At least an AS/400.
<Walter>	What database software is in WD now?
<Hoss>	DB2 has been tossed around.
<lmaxson>	That means none.
<Walter>	OK, but what is it actually _using_ right now?
<Swanee>	Hi gang, sorry I'm late but the IRS wants me done... :-)
<lmaxson>	DB2 UDB 7.x.
<Sector>	Well hello there Swanee
<lmaxson>	Purchase it.
<Swanee>	Hi Sector
<Swanee>	I'm still looking for one more form and I think I have my taxes done.
<Projects>	hey Wayne
<Hoss>	Walter : lmaxson is correct. right now WD is not DB based.
<Swanee>	Hi Projects! Long time - no see.
<Walter>	OK, thanks.
<Walter>	Hi Wayne!
<Swanee>	Hi Walter!
<Hoss>	WD is still in the design and concept phase...
*	Swanee has to search a file cabinet...
<MADodel>	We had asked IBM for a donated copy of DB2 UDB, but they never agreed. We can't afford the license we need.
<Hoss>	hiya Swanee.
<lmaxson>	The issue lies in how to properly store text data in a database that maximises the reuse of information.
<Swanee>	Hi Hoss!
<Swanee>	haha, I just went to hunt something down and IRC barked at me to come back. :-)
<lmaxson>	Mark, how much money are we talking about?
<Hoss>	well we appreciate you joining us.
<Hoss>	WorkGrup license for db2 UDB 7.0 ?
<lmaxson>	Yep.
<Swanee>	Hoss: I am still getting my taxes done. I had to be booted to "another" partition to finish up tonight
*	Swanee has to find something... brb
<Walter>	Well, folks...it's time to take myself upstairs and tuck myself into bed. Gotta get up early tomorrow.
<Sector>	Goodnight Walter
<MADodel>	Swanee: at least you get an extra hour
<Hoss>	Ok walter : stop by this channel _anytime_.
<Hoss>	thanks fo coming.
<Walter>	Thanks!
<Hoss>	lmaxson last I checked $450 plus.
<MADodel>	lmaxson: I don't remember. We discussed the license ad nauseum at one point. We can't legally do what we need with the personal version, we need the more expensive one. At least that is what was decided back then.
<lmaxson>	I just checked with indelible blue and it's under $1000.
<lmaxson>	I have this strange feeling that as part of the IBM developers whizbang that we can buy it at a deeper discount.
<lmaxson>	I will check on that.
<MADodel>	IBM has cutoff access to the software mall for non-corporate enterprise members.
<MADodel>	I can't even get in to look anymore
<lmaxson>	I come in through the developer's door.
<MADodel>	And I have an enterprise subscription to Developer
<lmaxson>	Then look there instead of the software mall.
<MADodel>	Where? As far as I know software mall is the only place to by developer products
<MADodel>	by = buy
<MADodel>	I wonder if we can get a discounted copy from Serenity. They probably can sell it as an OEM
<lmaxson>	The issue is that if it is only a $1000, that's still a bargain.
<lmaxson>	You can pay twice as much and have Oracle.
<MADodel>	Only if we can afford the bargain
<lmaxson>	Or nothing if you can live with MySQL.
<MADodel>	The last version of Oracle that ran on OS/2 was 7.1 I think, and that was discontinued years ago
<lmaxson>	It's time for me to go. If you all stick around late for the WD session on Wednesday, I will return to discuss this some more.
<MADodel>	Also we discussed a developers license before, and that is prohibited from being used in a production environment
<Hoss>	I' expect to be here.
<lmaxson>	The real issue lies in the means of storing html or xml documents.
<MADodel>	OK, Lynn. i will try to be there
<DSOM_eCS>	Serenity and distributors can sell DB2 at a discounted OEM price if the sale is tried to eCS or WiseXXX products. But, you can always check with Bob for more info.
<lmaxson>	See you then.
<Hoss>	why store html? why not store text? and the html elements and bring them together in the desired manner?
<Hoss>	it's much faster to search the text than search the text buried in the html
<MADodel>	I wish I had worked with DB2 instead of IMS
<Projects>	or nothing if we use our current DBExpert (if it'll do the job)
<Hoss>	here;s your chance madodel ;-)
<MADodel>	Would that work serving web pages?
<MADodel>	And can it handle the volume?
<Hoss>	for preliinary work I see no reason why dbExpert wouldn't do a decent job.
<Hoss>	but why do the learning for it...
<MADodel>	That uses DBF files natively doesn't it?
<Hoss>	and then relearn...
*	** The topic for #VOICE is: Afterhours discussion
<Projects>	Well, I'm outta here. Later
<Hoss>	projects? does it? I installed it... but havent' run it/
<MADodel>	You missed him
<Hoss>	timming is off again...
<Hoss>	err still. ;-)
<Hoss>	I gotta split as well. need to dance with MABell again tomorrow.
<MADodel>	I thought DBE can front for DB2, but that it can only natively build DBF files?
<MADodel>	OK, same here, only no dancing
<Hoss>	ok. cya tomorrow.
<Sector>	Ok, so long Hoss
<Sector>	Bye MADodel
<MADodel>	Actually, if DBExpert can front for DB2, we might be able to start with that, and then continue to use it after moving the backend to DB2
<MADodel>	We should ask the Sundial guys
<MADodel>	DBE is REXX enabled
<os2r>	re
<Sector>	Hi os2r
<MADodel>	I don't see any mention of web enablement on the DbExpert features list.
<MADodel>	Well I'm going to bed. Good night all
<Sector>	Goodnight MADodel