SpeakUp with Sundial Systems from 03/05/2001

<MADodel>	Shall we get started, or should we wait a little bit more?
<Randell>	Rollin and I are it for Sundial tonight, so it's up to you.
<MADodel>	OK, then let's start.
<Randell>	Great!
<MADodel>	VOICE would like to welcome the guys from Sundial Systems'
<MADodel>	Randell: Would you like to take it now
<Randell>	Well, we aleady let the cat out of the bag a bit by annoucning the topic for tonite's chat...
<Randell>	It's Junk Spy 2.0...
<Randell>	That's something we haven't really talked about publically anywhere before.
<Randell>	(Another VOICE first!)
<Randell>	Well, let's see...
<Randell>	We plan to deliver 2.0 in 2003...
<Randell>	No, just kidding.
<MADodel>	:-)
<rollin>	Had me worried.
<Randell>	This is one time when we have actually gotten WAY down the pike before we started talking about a new version...
*	Sector notes if a certain other company thought that way they might actually meet a target date for once
<Randell>	We've actually completed our first round of external testing on 2.0...
<Randell>	And are about to enter the second round.
<MADodel>	How have you kept it a secret this long?
<Randell>	It's not a major makeover...
<Randell>	That would be the wrong thing for Junk Spy since everyone has told us that the 1.0 design was the right way to do things.
<Randell>	But we're never satisfied.
<Randell>	Rollin and I will talk about some of the new features in detail...
<Randell>	but as usual for one of our "previews", we're prepared a summary for you to take a look at.
<Randell>	So, if you want the overview NOW, point your browser at (assuming I don't make a typo in the URL):
<Randell>	http://www.sundialsystems.com/junkspy/junkspy20preview.html
<Randell>	You'll see a bunch of new features that make the product better.
<Randell>	One being the Exeception Wizard... that we'll return to later.
<Randell>	The other important thing, an I know this can be a touchy subject in an OS/2 chat...
<Randell>	is support for Windows.
<Randell>	Now, don't throw too many rotton tomatoes at me...
<XRange>	season not in for tomatoes
<Randell>	This is NOT a statement about OS/2 and our commitment to OS/2 remains as strong as it has ever been.
<Klaus>	Randell: that's o.k. - we are no religious fanatics ( i hope ) ;-)
<Randell>	But Junk Spy is such a unique and useful product that we feel all those poor soles on Windows deserve a chance...
<Randell>	to see what REAL software can do!
<Randell>	And, the fact is, that a number of our OS/2 JunkSpy customers have asked us for a Windows version.
<Randell>	(Gee, I never thought the day would come when I publically said Sundial was doing a Windows product.)
<MADodel>	Is this a one time thing? Or might there eventually be a Mesa 2 for windoze as well?
*	Sector didn't either
<Randell>	OK, on with the show...
<Randell>	(Madodel, we aren't makeing any statements about other possible Windows products at this time.)
<Randell>	(We are viewing JunkSpy as a way to test the waters in the Window market because it doesn't really compete with other Windows products.)
<Randell>	In Junk Spy 2.0, everything you like about the way it detects and filters junk email is preserved.
<Projects>	(just because you have () around your text, doesn't mean the rest of us can't see it) :-)
<WyldFire>	Projects: Shhh! There's some good dirt in there! =)
<Projects>	hehehe
<Randell>	(Yes, Projects, I know... but it's parenthetical to what we REALLY want to accomplish here.)
<Projects>	(oh, OK)
<Randell>	What we've done is make the product even more effective and even easier to use.
<Randell>	For instance, those of you that have looked at the product (or have it) know that it uses...
<Randell>	two "external" (ie, not maintained by us) databases of internet addresses that are know to send...
<Randell>	junk mail or to relay junk mail. These are the RBL and RSS "black hole" lists.
<Randell>	Well, for 2.0, we've added support for the ORBS list -- kinda a "white hole".
<Randell>	What ORBS does is look for possible spam relay site BEFORE they are used by spammers.
<Randell>	The main reason they do this is to convince sites to tighten their security.
<Randell>	But some sites never do... and will eventually be found by the spammers.
<Randell>	So, Junk Spy 2.0 now can use that list to declare as junk mail any mail that passes thru those
<Randell>	sites... this can catch new junk mail campaigns far before they get "trapped" by the RBL/RSS black holes.
<Randell>	But, you know, one person's junk can be another person's treasures.
<Randell>	Something like Junk Spy has a much harder time than, say, an AntiVirus program.
<Randell>	That's because it's seldom a black-and-white issue as to whether a piece of mail is junk or not --- just like with snail mail.
<Randell>	What Junk Spy does is classify things as best it can.
<Randell>	It's bound to get things wrong some of the time (though our target is to make that number as small as possible)
<Randell>	(and we've generally suceeeded with that).
<Randell>	The way you make your own Junk Spy do an even better job for you...
<Randell>	is to "train" it to not classify some mail as junk by adding "exceptions" that allow message to pass thru.
<Randell>	What Junk Spy 2.0 does is make that training easier.
<Randell>	That's what the Exception Wizard is all about.
<Randell>	So let me turn it over to Rollin to tell you a little about the Wizard (since it's his creation).
<rollin>	Thanks!
<rollin>	The idea behind the Wizard is to guide the user through the process of creating an exception.
<rollin>	We've found that users are aware of exceptions, but didn't know if they should use a global exception or a local exception, and what to use as the exception.
<rollin>	So the Exception Wizard looks at the message in question (via the clipboard), and asks several questions of the user.
<rollin>	Using the answers to the questions (and even a suggestion or two), the wizard creates the exception for you.
<rollin>	So, you never even have to look at the exception dialog (if you don't want to).
<rollin>	We've found that the increased use of exceptions (only a few) make Junk Spy even more effective (by eliminating false positives).
<rollin>	Has everyone looked at the preview page? Any questions so far?
<Blackbird>	sorry I'm late....had to do supper..
<MADodel>	I see it says it will work with almost all POP3 mailers. Can this work with IMAP as well?
<Sector>	Hello Blackbird
<Blackbird>	Is there a URL that I missed....Hi Sector...long time
<Randell>	http://www.sundialsystems.com/junkspy/junkspy20preview.html
<Blackbird>	thanks
<rollin>	IMAP is not supported yet. It's significantly different thant POP3, so it will take some major changes. But it's pretty high on the feature list as far as I'm concerned.
<Klaus>	I assume you won't support Lotus Notes.. do you?
<Randell>	Yes, we hope to support IMAP in the future, but it's not a 2.0 or 2.x thing at this point.
<Randell>	Ah, the Notes question...
<rollin>	You can use Notes as a POP3 client, but we don't have Agent-level support. It's in the same ballpark as IMAP. Takes big changes, but pretty important.
<Klaus>	rollin: I use notes with a domino-server, so going down to pop3 isn't verry clever for me *g*
<rollin>	Klaus, I understand. Do you use the OS/2 Notes client or the Windows client?
<MADodel>	Or the windoze client on OS/2? :-)
<Klaus>	rollin: notes 4.6.7 client for OS/2...
<rollin>	Noted. We'll add your vote to the Notes feature :)
<Klaus>	rollin: just played with odin and the notes5(win) version.. but still prefer working software over fancy soft ;-))
<Klaus>	rollin: thanks ;-))
<Randell>	I should emphasize that one of the goals for 2.0...
<rollin>	In addition to the major features Randell has gone over, we've added many other smaller ones. One of the favorites is "marking via subject"....
<Randell>	was to be absolutely sure that our POP3 support was as rock solid as it could be.
<XRange>	Security Settings (Restrictive & Most Restrictive) Whats the differents?
<rollin>	It was actually in an early beta of 1.0, the subject is Prepended witht he word JunkMail. It makes it easy to visually pick out which messages Junk Spy has marked as junk.
<rollin>	XRange, in 1.0, Junk Spy would accept connections from all TCP/IP interfaces and then...
<rollin>	shut down the connection if it wasn't from the local computer.
<rollin>	While it's 100% secure, some people didn't like it because the various software that reports if your computer is "secure" would report that port 110 was open. With Most Restrictive we only listen on the local/loopback interface this never accepting connections over the lan or ppp interface.
<XRange>	ok
<Randell>	XRange, that's one of those things that have been a pain to document in 2.0...
<Randell>	without getting into details that would confuse most users...
*	Sector doubts that those "most" users are here... ;>
<Randell>	that's why we settled on the terms "Restrictive" and "Most restricive" since we figure...
<Randell>	the average Windows user of JunkSpy isn't going to even have a clue...
<Randell>	what a "loopback interface" is...
<Randell>	let along what port 110 has to do with anything.
<Randell>	Rollin, I think you were starting to talk about Mark Subject Field... did you get done with that?
<rollin>	Yes, I did. There are other features too....
<rollin>	One of the common complaints was that for very large messages, it looked like Junk Spy was just sitting there or the email program was stuck.
<rollin>	If a message is sufficently large, the chance of it being junk is almost nil. So we provide an option to send the message immediately if it is over a certain threshold.
<MADodel>	Then it may be a virus. I noticed Junk SPy 2.0 will play nice with Norton AV. Which processes the message first?
<rollin>	Madodel, you can actually configure it either way, but we document NAV putting NAV first since it's more consistent with their documentation and default settings.
<rollin>	Randell mentioned that we were ready for the next round of testing....
<Sector>	wb os2r
<os2r>	Thanks sector...machine locked up....
<rollin>	We still are looking for a few additional testers. If you are interested in testing Junk Spy for OS/2 or Windows drop a note to junkspy@sundialsystems.com.
<XRange>	hi os2r
<os2r>	hi XRange
<Randell>	And let me reinforce that...
<os2r>	has price been mentioned yet? will there be an upgrade price
<Randell>	we do want some additional testers for this next round.
<Randell>	No, we haven't mentioned price or availability.
<Sector>	Note dropped
<os2r>	thanks
<rollin>	os2r, we have not made any announcements about pricing yet. Just like product information, we don't like to preannounce pricing either :)
<Randell>	You can expect those annoucements to be relatively soon, but I won't give you specific dates or numbers yet.
<Randell>	I will say, however, that for those of you that already have Junk Spy 1.0...
<XRange>	Additional Formats For User and Server Information about @ ?
<MADodel>	Will both the windows and OS/2 versions be licensed together? Or will they be separate products?
<Randell>	it will NOT be a free upgrade. However, it the upgrade price will include...
<Randell>	a period of continued updates to the detection datebase...
<os2r>	I have to say that having used it since it came out, it's been the first program I ever used that does everything I need........and does it well.....
<rollin>	XRange, some programs (Netscape) filter everything after the @ in the assumption that the user shouldn't have entered their email address. So now we support / as a seperator as well as one other character to make Netscape happy (or ignorant).
<Sector>	Some email clients (ie: Netscape) don't pass the @, so other characters can be used in place of this. (At least that's my interpretation)
<rollin>	os2r, thanks!!!
<Randell>	os2r, thank you!
<os2r>	u r welcome....just keep up the good work!
<Randell>	Those things like the / vs @ support...
<Randell>	are part of our commitment to make the POP3 support just as rock solid as possible for 2.0.
<Randell>	And to try to support every possible POP3 client program in 2.0...
<Randell>	And, so far, we haven't met a POP3 program that Junk Spy doesn't like (with these enhancements).
<Randell>	madodel, I think you had a question back there that we didn't answer.
<MADodel>	Will both the windows and OS/2 versions be licensed together? Or will they be separate products?
<Randell>	Ah, yes.
<Randell>	While we haven't made the absolutely final decision...
<Randell>	our plan at this point is for your Junk Spy license to be "platform independent"...
<Projects>	cool... a Java license :)
<XRange>	Exception Wizard does it popup at will ?
<Randell>	meaning that you can use it with on any system...
<Randell>	as long as you don't try to use it on multiple systems at the same time
<rollin>	Xrange, no, on demand. Basically you copy a message to the clipboard and then say "go".
<Randell>	(which we trust you on since we can't actually enfoce that).
<Randell>	The packaging may be specific to a given platform.
<Randell>	But the license you get would work with either packaging.
<Randell>	The downloadable product images will definitely be separate.
<Randell>	Did that answer it?
<MADodel>	If the packages are separate, then one has to purchase both.
<Randell>	Well, no.
<Randell>	You purchase one.
<rollin>	Packaging was probably the wrong word. How about installer.
<Randell>	You can then download the other the specifics for the other platform...
<Randell>	Ok, yes, Installer is probably better.
<Sector>	Let's see, you download whichever platform you need and are free to use the license for a different platform if you download that platforms version.
<MADodel>	OK, that is clearer
<Randell>	Sector, yes.
*	madodel only runs Os/2 and one lone IMac anyway :-)
<Randell>	Sorry, no IMac version (yet?)
*	Projects only does email on OS/2
<XRange>	is Junk Spy v2 java based since it's for more then one platform?
<rollin>	XRange, no it is native to each platform....
<Randell>	As Rollin said, it's a native app in each case.
<rollin>	From the beginning we developed it with the possibility of moving it to other platforms. The "Port" to Windows was relatively minimal. The design has allowed us to take advantage of platform specific features and still be portable.
<Randell>	On OS/2 it looks and feels like an OS/2 app, on Windows, it looks and feels like a Windows app (but performs better than the average Windows ap).
<rollin>	Believe it or not, it is possible to create a Windows app that takes 2 megs of disk space!
<Randell>	No, not possible!
*	XRange was just curious
<XRange>	running out haed drive space here.. :)
<rollin>	Our documentation is bigger than the program itself (for both OS/2 and Windows).
<Randell>	On Windows, for instance, your primary access to Junk Spy is from a TaskBar icon.
<Klaus>	rollin: cool - reminds me on tedit ;-))
<rollin>	Good!
<Klaus>	Randell: will you create a Windget for X-Workplace's XCenter?
<rollin>	Klaus, we'll add it to the feature request list. I'll have to look into it.
<rollin>	Other questions?
<Randell>	For the heck of it, I just checked the current numbers (as of the current build)...
<Randell>	and, granted, the installers are very different...
<Randell>	but the installable image file, including documentation...
<Sector>	Not that I need it, but any plans for a server version where you could have it running on one computer and access it from multiple computersù
<Randell>	is about 1.1 M for OS/2 and 2.1 M for Windows.
<rollin>	Sector, yes that is out a little bit farther on our road-map.
<Randell>	Sector, officially, NO COMMENT.
<rollin>	Randell, most of that difference is the compression in ZIP vs the self extracting installer.
<rollin>	Sector, I mean NO COMMENT :)
<MADodel>	rollin: can we quote you on that "no comment"?
<MADodel>	:-)
<rollin>	No, of course not!
<Randell>	Any more questions? Or is it time to head toward tonight's trivia question...
<Hoss>	sounds good.
<Projects>	one quick question... if junk spy's running, it doesn't do anything unless the email program calls it, right?
<rollin>	Projects, yes. It's basically waiting to be driven by the email program.
<rollin>	More questions are welcome too, we're not rushing off.
*	XRange not good at answers how about we shoot Archery for it... :)
<Hoss>	LOL, get 'em Xrange.
*	Sector puts an apple on XRange's head
<Randell>	XRange, tonight's question has an "easy" answer...
<XRange>	rofl
<Blackbird>	I'll try my shotgun instead..
<Randell>	In fact, you've already seen the answer tonight if you've been paying close attention...
<Randell>	(as everybody hastily scrolls back)
<Blackbird>	But if we came in late...???
<Projects>	damn, and i was off installing junk spy :-(
<Randell>	Ok than...
*	Hoss kept the www log off tonight. ;-)
<Randell>	First, let mre repeat that we are still looking for testers to participate in the next round of testing before we "go public" about 2.0.
*	Hoss volunteers.
*	Projects already volunteered
<Randell>	And, to be honest, we really would like a few people who can comparatively test it on both OS/2 and Windows.
<XRange>	sign ........up here
<Sector>	Hoss send your application to junkspy@sundialsystems.com
<os2r>	what version of windows?
*	Projects doesn't have an emailer on his NT box
<Randell>	So if you do POP3 email on both platforms, PLEASE let us know by sending a note to junkspy@sundialsystems.com.
<Hoss>	darn it, no win boxes.
<Randell>	Projects, you don't have Netscape or Outlook?
<Projects>	Hoss is lucky :-)
<rollin>	os2r, anything but Windows 3.1
<Blackbird>	Ive got an OS/2 machine and the wifey uses that OTHER stuff...and it's connected with Injoy Gateway
<XRange>	sig XRange up
<Rat-Salad>	wwe have a win2k box here
*	Sector is also window less
<Randell>	Randel agrees Hoss is lucky...
<Chrissy>	but I dont boot it :)
<Rat-Salad>	hehe
<Projects>	Randell: Outlook, never. Netscape, only because I had to install it to debug my mother's problem... I don't use it though.
<XRange>	got win nt but don't pull mail with win here
<Projects>	same
<Randell>	Any more questions/comments before "quiz time"?
<WarpedOS2>	Is this only for junk spy?
<XRange>	os/2 mr/2 ice pulls mail here
<Randell>	Tonight we're giving away a copy of Junk Spy 2.0 (when available) or an upgrade (if the winner already has 1.x).
<Randell>	The "standard" VOICE rules for the participation in the giveaway apply.
<rollin>	os2r, no new news.
<Randell>	(Don't ask me what those are, we've tried to figure that out many times.)
<WarpedOS2>	will there be any updated filters for your spreadsheet..?
<Randell>	Basically, first person to POST the correct answer to the group wins.
<Randell>	Private replies will be ignored.
*	Sector notes that rule was made for him...
<Randell>	(Decisions of the judges are final, not resposible for posting delays, etc, etc.)
<Projects>	hehehe
*	XRange drows bow back
<Randell>	Ok, quiet please.
<Sector>	Drum Roll
<Randell>	Since Randell installed Junk Spy 1.0 on his "production" machine at work...
<Randell>	it has processed a total of 12,409 email messages.
<Randell>	What percentage of those did Junk Spy determine to be junk?
<XRange>	>>>>--------> and misses......
<Blackbird>	38%
<Skip>	15%
<Projects>	92%
<XRange>	25%
<Klaus>	42%
<rollin>	Wow, an easy question turned hard!
<Randell>	Any more guesses, closest answer wins. Remeber, I said that you've seen the answer if you were paying attension.
<MADodel>	26%
<Randell>	(No, if you've guessed, you can't change your answer.)
<os2r>	33%
<Randell>	Polls close in 30 secs.
<Randell>	The correct answer is 21%.
<Randell>	That means XRange gets it!
<os2r>	congrats XRange
<Randell>	If you looked at the Preview page, the picture of Junk Spy's main window was taken off that machine.
<Hoss>	Congratulations Xrange.
<Projects>	Randell obviously doesn't have my email account... :)
<Skip>	Yeah, congrats. (beat me by a crummy 1%)
<Klaus>	Randell: uh damn it's in the 1st screenshot of your website ;-)
<rollin>	The bonus question (worth nothing): how many does randell still need to read or respond to?
<XRange>	>>>-------> hit
<Projects>	hahahaha
<Randell>	Any other Junk Spy users out there want to give their own percentages?
<Skip>	Show off!!
<XRange>	i busy in scroll back
*	Projects only just installed Junk Spy... so far, 0% spam
<os2r>	322 of 2706 here....
<Randell>	Bonus, bonus question (worth nothing): what is it on Rollin's test machine where all the Junk mail comes in?
<rollin>	51 %
<XRange>	tahnks Randell
<Randell>	Projects has the best possible answer... it's all downhill from there.
<Projects>	Randell: yeah, spam's on the incline :*
<Randell>	XRange, send a note to junkspy@sundialsystems.com and we'll take care of getting you your copy.
<XRange>	kool
<Randell>	Well, that just about wraps it up for tonight folks.
*	Projects turned down a free copy of junk spy 'cause I rarely got any spam... until about a week after I turned down the offer :(
<Randell>	Let me take a moment, however...
<MADodel>	Randell and Rollin thank you for coming. Can we look forward to seeing you again in two months?
<Randell>	To say how said we all are here at Sundail that Dan Casey couldn't be with us tonight. We all will miss him.
<Randell>	Sorry, (sad) not (said)...
<Skip>	Amen to that.
<os2r>	yup....even Warpstock won't be the same without him....
<Randell>	madodel, thanks for having us and I know Dan is thanking us (whereever he is) as well.
<rollin>	madodel, at this point yes. We don't have a planned topic, but we'll look forward to it.
<Randell>	Yes, we'll be back in two months... May I guess that is.
<MADodel>	Yep, looks like May 7th
<Sector>	Thansk for comming and sharing your time with us
<Randell>	May 7th it is then!
<Skip>	Thanks for coming Randell and Rollin.
<rollin>	Thank you!
<Randell>	Thanks, everyone, for having us... it's always fun.
<Randell>	Night!
<rollin>	If you have any linger questions, drop us a line at junkspy@sundialsystems.com
<Projects>	g'night Randell/rollin